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As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

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Re: As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

#111

Post by ericjmorey »

freediddy wrote: post #99
moffkalast wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://climate.copernicus.eu/copernicus-2024-first-year-exc... Reading a thermometer is not really an advanced skill.

Except you have no idea what the capability of sharks are to adapt to different ocean temperatures. As sharks swim across various parts of the ocean or at various depths in a single day, the temperatures change far quicker than ocean temperatures over the last 100 years. The idea that you could guess that sharks can't adapt to a wide range of temperatures is nothing but a wild guess on your part because it agrees wit…

How are you in any way qualified to know that what you said is correct, besides that being a wild guess?

Re: As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

#112

Post by moritzwarhier »

freediddy wrote: post #86
moffkalast wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I presume it was due to the temperature gradient being extremely low, so they could gradually adapt to the change over hundreds of years. We're pulling the handbrake in geological terms. https://xkcd.com/1732 (that chart was made in 2016, given that we were at +1.5C last year we're outdone even the most pessimistic scenario presented on that graph by quite a bit, the line is now almost horizontal)

How are you in any way qualified to know that what you said is correct, besides that being a wild guess?

How are you qualified to know anything that you haven't personally witnessed, besides all of your "knowledge" being a wild guess?

Re: As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

#113

Post by great_tankard »

tracker1 wrote: post #79

As sad as these things are... one needs to also accept, that as capable as we are of changing our environments, from transportation, to air conditioning, we do not control all the things. We have and continue to over-fish in a lot of places, and I have deep concerns over farmed fish and the impact of less than natural foods on our own health. A lot of the changes to the waters is well outside human control... there's…

This is a really strange, deterministic view on something we collectively have influence over. That thing about "unintended consequences that [may be] materially worse?" We've actually just quietly folded the materially worse consequences of our behavior into the cost of doing business. Hurricanes are stronger, flooding is worse in coastal cities, fires are worse in arid areas. Fish don't magically make mercury; a significant portion of that comes from burning coal and mining activities.

All of these things are firmly within our control.

Re: As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

#114

Post by micromacrofoot »

wongarsu wrote: post #23
micromacrofoot wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe, but only because a lot of people would starve... that's a demand change our food supply isn't currently structured to handle long term with a proper transition, probably not 60% but likely some lower double-digit percentage (maybe closer to 20?)

We grow a lot of human-edible food for the sole purpose to feed it to livestock, who then spend most of those calories on existing and put a small portion into body mass that we eventually eat. Sure, that stuff isn't of the same quality as food grown for human consumption, but putting livestock on a diet and diverting some of their food to human consumption would more than cover any shortfall from the missing meat

we don't have the distribution systems for it, I promise you it could not be reconfigured overnight (which is the specific thought exercise we were given)

Re: As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

#115

Post by lnwlebjel »

sebmellen wrote: post #48

Time to make sunsets. https://makesunsets.com . I don’t see a way out except for stratospheric aerosol injection.

I agree. I see climate engineering as the short term solution that will get us to the long term solution. Without commenting on this specific implementation, experiments could be done. Many of the aerosol-type ideas are not permanent and would not last (and neither would their impacts). Models are good enough to understand the impacts and if they are not now they can be improved through a cycle of experimentation and further modeling. Other solutions are decades away and they have been for decades. Time to take this seriously. We are already engineering the climate, just not one conducive to life.

Re: As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

#116

Post by HelloMcFly »

Insanity wrote: post #69
HelloMcFly wrote: post #14

I want to ignore these articles as it is so painful to watch the beautiful clockwork of the natural world unravel. I hate facing the suffering, diminishment, and extinction of so much in the name of profiteering and ever-increasing growth. But this is the world now, there will only be more stories like this, and so I'm not turning away from it any further. The world becomes less beautiful, less rich, less full every…

First off, I'm vegetarian and generally climate-conscious. I think we humans should do what we can in order to protect our planet. I think we can do a lot to keep the planet a good place for all living beings. But to also say something unpopular, humans are part of the natural world. So these human driven changes to nature are just 'nature changing nature'. I understand that we are potentially causing mass extinction…

> unless you take for granted that humans are inherently 'special' which leads to speciesism

It is true humans are part of nature, but we are unique in our capacity for causal understanding and foresight. We are the only species that can understand the long-term consequences of our actions and actively choose to change course. If our ability to exploit is natural, our ability to act with foresight and restraint is equally natural. Framing the present-day destruction as a natural consequence of some "evolutionary law" to me is an "appeal to nature" fallacy that can be used to absolve both individual and collective responsibility.

Yes, this is perhaps a way (it seems far too presumptive to say "the way") planets with intelligent species evolve. We are perhaps entering the Great Filter, or one of them.

> Also, to be fair, _most_ of life on earth will survive this

Literally true, but I'd argue a semantic deflection. It doesn't engage with the core idea of the destruction of complex ecosystems that we are witnessing and commenting on.

That said and to the point: I have tried to really focus on and take comfort in the idea "deep time", and the sincere belief that for as much destruction as we create, there will be more and different beauty in the far, far future. Yet where the Louvre to burn, how much comfort would it be to me that over the next 1000 years other artists will create yet more great works?

Re: As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

#117

Post by leptons »

great_tankard wrote: post #113
tracker1 wrote: post #79

As sad as these things are... one needs to also accept, that as capable as we are of changing our environments, from transportation, to air conditioning, we do not control all the things. We have and continue to over-fish in a lot of places, and I have deep concerns over farmed fish and the impact of less than natural foods on our own health. A lot of the changes to the waters is well outside human control... there's…

This is a really strange, deterministic view on something we collectively have influence over. That thing about "unintended consequences that [may be] materially worse?" We've actually just quietly folded the materially worse consequences of our behavior into the cost of doing business. Hurricanes are stronger, flooding is worse in coastal cities, fires are worse in arid areas. Fish don't magically make mercury; a si…

They aren't in "our" control, they are in the control of the very wealthy, who will not let the thought of natural disaster and mass extinctions affect their bottom line until there's no resource left for them to exploit.

Re: As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

#118

Post by HelloMcFly »

throwaway27448 wrote: post #87
HelloMcFly wrote: post #14

I want to ignore these articles as it is so painful to watch the beautiful clockwork of the natural world unravel. I hate facing the suffering, diminishment, and extinction of so much in the name of profiteering and ever-increasing growth. But this is the world now, there will only be more stories like this, and so I'm not turning away from it any further. The world becomes less beautiful, less rich, less full every…

> I do volunteer, donate, and advocate and I won't use my extreme pessimism as an excuse not to engage. I think it is ok to not engage. The idea that you can impact the world is largely an artifact of modernity. In reality, capital is more than happy to let you take the blame for its own suicidal tendencies.

> I think it is ok to not engage.

I understand what you're saying. I appreciate the thought behind it. But in the end, I do not agree. I cannot be certain where my actions will and won't ultimately help accrue to impact; the pebble knows not the impact that its ripples will have. If you care about something, I think you should be involved.

Re: As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

#119

Post by axus »

vivzkestrel wrote: post #6

- stupid question - if everyone on the entire planet went 100% vegan from tomorrow, will carbon emissions really go down by 60%?

Donald Trump has probably done more to halt CO2 production than any other president, by extending the COVID pandemic and closing the Straight of Hormuz.

Re: As oceans warm, great white sharks are overheating

#120

Post by tracker1 »

great_tankard wrote: post #113
tracker1 wrote: post #79

As sad as these things are... one needs to also accept, that as capable as we are of changing our environments, from transportation, to air conditioning, we do not control all the things. We have and continue to over-fish in a lot of places, and I have deep concerns over farmed fish and the impact of less than natural foods on our own health. A lot of the changes to the waters is well outside human control... there's…

This is a really strange, deterministic view on something we collectively have influence over. That thing about "unintended consequences that [may be] materially worse?" We've actually just quietly folded the materially worse consequences of our behavior into the cost of doing business. Hurricanes are stronger, flooding is worse in coastal cities, fires are worse in arid areas. Fish don't magically make mercury; a si…

So, do you propose we kill off a significant portion of humanity by lottery, war, or some other method of selection? Do we just stop all industry and let nature work itself out instead?

You're in control after all.

edit: sarcasm aside... my entire point is that the guilt itself isn't healthy and does no good for anyone. Yes, there are things that can probably be done, but alarmism, blame and guilt cycles do nothing to help anyone.

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