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Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

bbc.com

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Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#111

Post by cineticdaffodil »

tehjoker wrote: post #45
ViscountPenguin wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some interesting research on the effect of T in mice which has been challenging traditional assumptions of its role in males: https://news.emory.edu/stories/2022/08/esc_testosterone_anim... It's worth noting though that the actions of the "stereotypical man" are strongly culturally informed, and not neccessarily indicative of whatever evolutionary pressures would've wired males brains whatever way they're wir…

A lot of ancient cultures were collectivist if small. In some cases, matriarchal, in some cases, sex was "free" because the village owned the kids, and so establishing paternity was not as important because the burden was shared.

How do youvarrive at matruarchal while most male mammals display hormonal harem bloat? If nature blows you up into body building brute once you have a family, does that not indicate a clear pyramid of force and a violence monopoly?

PS: prediction power and testable.. could be science where it not for utopist airsuperiority

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#112

Post by narvidas »

kyleee wrote: post #107
rrgok wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you need external input to improve yourself then I'm wondering if you are ready to be a father. I might sound rude, but it is not my intention. I don't know how else to put it. It is still better than people who never learn this either way.

Awful comment either way. That’s one you keep to yourself

That's so interesting, isn't it?

What this person could've take away here was that: - Contrary to what the article states, parenthood in males can sometimes even boost testosterone through external factors. - Or that resitance training and diet is a great way to deal with daily stress.

What instead they took away was that improving oneself for family somehow makes you unfit to be a parent.

A rather dark interpretation. Sincerely hope they are OK and well.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#113

Post by goku12 »

incr_me wrote: post #75
goku12 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating nurturing and protection with birthing and nursing. I also don't understand why this opinion is so controversial. Humans, including men are one of the rare species that nurture and protect babies (consciously and beyond symbiosis) of other individuals or even species, including wild animals. Why is it so surprising then that men are good at nurturing their own babies?

Sure, but "every bit as protective and nurturing as the most committed mother" is indeed an overstatement if you believe, as Donald Winnicott did, that there's something qualitatively advantageous about what a mother can provide, namely breastfeeding. Bottle-feeding, if done in an attuned, consistent, and emotionally present way, can support the same psychological processes as nursing does, but it is certainly less l…

You are still ignoring the only distinction I made - the one between nurturing and nursing. I always understood them as having widely accepted distinct meanings, and the author of the article seems to follow it too.

You can either argue that their understanding of 'nurturing' is wrong, or that men can't nurture as well as women, without conflating the two. You can't have it both ways. Labeling it as an 'overstatement' after completely ignoring their definition of the terms is a disingenuous argument.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#114

Post by necovek »

dividefuel wrote: post #68
porknubbins wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its being older already but I don’t feel super changed having a baby like people told me I would. I don’t do work or hobbies or socializing any differently. Everything else in my life didnt suddenly seem unimportant. The one big difference is up to now I though crying babies were annoying and subconsiously somehow blamed parents. Now I see how foolish that was as babies are born knowing nothing and are just ado…

Agree with this. I'm a little more sensitive to the idea of horrible things happening to small children (e.g. sad news stories), but for the most part I didn't find kids to be a major shift in my beliefs.

One health-check I used to anchor that type of feeling is if both parents feel the same way?

But I really felt it because my kid was a lousy eater, slept little (I believe those are related), and you ended up with continuous lack of sleep and energy and adopt patterns to be very quiet when kid is finally asleep.

Still, we mostly kept our hobbies until the second kid came, albeit some we did together (like team sports) slowed down. And things like travelling cross continents have stopped too (hard to travel, risky food...).

With the second you don't even have the benefit of being two parents and one kid so you can alternate the rest and activities (though the older one is by now more reasonable, but still a kiddo). Perhaps it was just uncertainty and lockdowns of Covid during early pregnancy (3 months when lockdowns started) and first year that caused a shift, instead of kids, but without kids, we'd probably pick up the pace more easily after.

I have friends who had an easy first kid and didn't have to change much, and the second tore them apart (literally, now separated), so I doubt there is one approach that always works.

At the same time, I like to say that it is good to have two mindsets in two parents (when both are available): eg. I have friends where mom is more relaxed and dad is all stressed up, and they are still a healthy family (so neither unhinged kids when neither parent cares, not overly sensitive kids when both are too invested).

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#115

Post by goku12 »

mbac32768 wrote: post #58
verteu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of the studies described changes in hormones before the child was born.

Given this is "BBC Future" let me guess, barely above significance and n=16?

I'm unfamiliar with the subject. What's the problem with BBC Future?

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#117

Post by ludicrousdispla »

davorak wrote: post #46
verteu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of the studies described changes in hormones before the child was born.

Extra time commitment, and therefor missing some sleep, can start before the baby is born.

Reminds me of when I would stay up late ironing my wife's maternity BDUs.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#118

Post by nailer »

goku12 wrote: post #65
nailer wrote: post #12

> that men have all the necessary biological wiring to be "every bit as protective and nurturing as the most committed mother This seems like an overstatement - man can't give birth to babies (which involves transfer of the mothers biome to the baby) or feed babies (which typically involves lactation).

You're conflating nurturing and protection with birthing and nursing. I also don't understand why this opinion is so controversial. Humans, including men are one of the rare species that nurture and protect babies (consciously and beyond symbiosis) of other individuals or even species, including wild animals. Why is it so surprising then that men are good at nurturing their own babies?

> You're conflating nurturing and protection with birthing and nursing.

No I rather pointing out that essential parts of nurture and protection are nursing and birthing.

Nurturing involves feeding. Birthing provides protection through biome, as explained in the comment you’re replying to.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#119

Post by nailer »

acdha wrote: post #32
nailer wrote: post #12

> that men have all the necessary biological wiring to be "every bit as protective and nurturing as the most committed mother This seems like an overstatement - man can't give birth to babies (which involves transfer of the mothers biome to the baby) or feed babies (which typically involves lactation).

Neither of the quibbles you drew are what people usually class as protective or nurturing behavior? At least in the English-speaking world that’s later in a child’s life than birth. I’d also note that the concern about feeding babies has been obsolete since the invention of formula.

[dead]

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#120

Post by toyg »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #39
XorNot wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a father I can assure you you have no idea what you're talking about.

I can't speak for the person you're responding to, but my default reaction to people who say things like this is that they probably don't have kids, and if they do, I wonder about the well-being of their family life. I don't mean that to be insulting at all. It seems completely incompatible with being a family- or community-involved person. And what's society without kids? Whether you're a parent or not, we need kids…

I have kids and I am quite the opposite. My interest in them is very occasional. Teaching anything takes a lot of work and they're typically not interested anyway. Most of the experiences they have at school, I have no real insight on. I like to see their interests develop, and I notice that my youngest would probably enjoy partnering with me on some things, but that is it. I'm sure that puts me on some spectrum, but that is how I feel and, whenever a few other dads I know take their guard down, they have a lot of similar feelings - but they cannot state them, because they have become socially unacceptable.

Note also that a lot of what we consider "fatherhood" is a Western construct of the last 150 years, with falling birth rates and diffused wealth. Things were very different when families were poor and sprawling: fathers simply did not have significant time to spend with all their kids, when they had a dozen of them and were out of the house most of the day for work. Significant bonds would be developed only while working together, later in life.

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