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Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

clojure.org

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Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What made you stop using Clojure or not so much anymore? No jobs in Clojure? Also, in your view, is Clojure better suited for ML / AI apps? And if so, what is stopping it from being more widely adopted. I read the interop with Python ML libraries is good?

> what is stopping it from being more widely adopted. The best tools usually need a level of skill or patience that most developers just don't have time for. And companies have to ship with the developers they actually have, not ideal ones. Lisp, formal methods, immutability, property-based testing - we agree on these. They just demand more than most people can give under a real deadline. A tool that shines in expert…

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Haven't seen it from that perspective yet.

But then you have companies like NuBank, who chose Datatomic / Clojure and trains new devs in it.

So it's about tech leadership with a 'nobody got fired for choosing IBM' mindset not wanting to take risks. Go with the 'safe' option... Python, TS, etc and their respective ecosystems and developer pools.

Or is the reality that Clojure put you ahead back in the 2010s, but in 2026 it only offers marginal business value and benefits.

Anyway, I'm a newbie and am continuing to learn it because I want to learn to think differently about software architecture.

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is stopping it from being more widely adopted. The best tools usually need a level of skill or patience that most developers just don't have time for. And companies have to ship with the developers they actually have, not ideal ones. Lisp, formal methods, immutability, property-based testing - we agree on these. They just demand more than most people can give under a real deadline. A tool that shines in expert…

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Haven't seen it from that perspective yet. But then you have companies like NuBank, who chose Datatomic / Clojure and trains new devs in it. So it's about tech leadership with a 'nobody got fired for choosing IBM' mindset not wanting to take risks. Go with the 'safe' option... Python, TS, etc and their respective ecosystems and developer pools. Or is the reality that Clojure put you…

> Or is the reality that Clojure put you ahead back in the 2010s, but in 2026 it only offers marginal business value and benefits.

How so? Yes, some ideas from early Clojure have leaked into the mainstream, yet "absorbed some FP-flavored features" is not the same as "delivers Clojure's value proposition". Let's examine the proposition: "a language where I can iterate on domain logic at REPL speed with immutable data and good concurrency on a mature runtime", what does fit this description today?

- Elixir is the closest thing. Immutable by default, pattern matching, excellent concurrency, What we'd lose? Homoiconicity and macros of the same level, the host-interop story, data-orientation as a philosophy.

- F#. Immutable by default, discriminated unions, computation expressions, nice REPL, hosted on a mature runtime with full ecosystem access. Statically typed, which is a different tradeoff. What you lose: dynamism, macros, the Lisp sensibility, cljs-style multi-host story.

- Elm/Purescript in the frontend niche. Immutable, functional, good at what they do. Neither is a Clojure replacement because neither is a general-purpose platform play. Elm is effectively frozen. Purescript is healthy but tiny.

- Gleam on BEAM. Typed, functional, growing fast. Too young to be a replacement today, worth watching.

- Scala. I'd argue it shouldn't even be in the category despite the surface similarity. It's a different philosophy (types-first, expression-oriented, complex type system) and the REPL experience is not comparable. It competes with Clojure for "the non-Java JVM job" but not on value proposition.

- Kotlin. Even further from the category. Pragmatic Java-plus. Wins jobs Clojure might have won in 2015 but for reasons of "looks like Java, hires like Java" rather than matching Clojure's model.

- Before you say what seems to be everyone wants to scream about - Rust/Zig and Clojure solve almost disjoint problems, which is the first thing to say out loud when someone uses one to dismiss the other. I can dive into the details, if you insist, but I think this isn't the category for it.

The real answer to "is there a replacement": no single language hits all of (hosted + dynamic + homoiconic + persistent data + REPL-driven + multi-host via .cljc). Elixir hits most of the development-model points but throws out the multi-platform story and the Lisp. F# hits the runtime maturity and immutability but throws out dynamism. Everything else is further. What you actually see is Clojure holding a small, stable, well-compensated niche. And it's holding it like a champ - it offers real, practical, sensible benefits where every other stack have no similar alternatives for.

But the bigger point is that doing this kind of shallow comparisons is vain, because you really need to understand every language holistically - every language has strong points and weaknesses that manifest in certain scenarios, for certain domains, teams, different constraints. Clojure remarkably fits well more often than it doesn't. More importantly, the model and the ideas that the language promotes fit elegantly, even when you're not writing Clojure.

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#113
post #59

Looking back Clojure has been the best thing to happen to me in this industry I doubled my salary using it and changed industries to much more stable industries I've been to a lot of conferences and meet ups in my career but the feeling of joy and inclusivity at Heart of Clojure was unreal The community is still alive and well, my favourite passionate sub culture in the Clojure community at the moment is the Jank com…

Guess you could say it helped you find some clojure

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#114

Clojure is a great language and ecosystem. I donated a little money to Rich's efforts in the early days (I loved his older Common Lisp - Java bridge so his Clojure project was immediately interesting) and I have been paid for a few years of Clojure development. I like maintaining the history in one place, nicely done. I don't use Clojure much anymore, but two hours ago I updated two chapters in my old Clojure book be…

What made you stop using Clojure or not so much anymore? No jobs in Clojure? Also, in your view, is Clojure better suited for ML / AI apps? And if so, what is stopping it from being more widely adopted. I read the interop with Python ML libraries is good?

I used tools that I was paid to use. After being deep in neural networks in the 1980s, ten years ago I dropped back into deep learning, thus mostly used Python.

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#115

Clojure is a great language and ecosystem. I donated a little money to Rich's efforts in the early days (I loved his older Common Lisp - Java bridge so his Clojure project was immediately interesting) and I have been paid for a few years of Clojure development. I like maintaining the history in one place, nicely done. I don't use Clojure much anymore, but two hours ago I updated two chapters in my old Clojure book be…

Hey other Mark Watson ( ^_^)/

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#116
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things have been different for well over five years... In fact, I first presented Cursive at the conj 2014, and I'd been working on it in open beta for perhaps a year before that, so well over 10 years! ...all this fantastic "static analysis style" developer tooling by borkdude and eric dallo. ahem

Thank you Colin for the outstanding work and selfless, continuous gifting and self-generosity. Cursive remains one of the important pillars of Clojure journey for many beginners and seasoned pros. You just can't ignore the amazing collaboration and camaraderie between Clojure tools builders. - you Colin, Peter (Calva), Eric (clojure-lsp), Michiel (babashka, kondo, etc.), Bozhidar (CIDER, clojure-mode), Juan (flowstor…

Thanks! Yes, I get on really well with everyone in the community - the community in general is perhaps my favourite thing about Clojure!

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#117
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the clojure, but I think a big downside is not being able to use it at work and now work feels like I'm being forced to work with stone age tools in comparison. Sometimes I think I was happier before I learned Clojure.

I never understood this sentiment. Even if nobody on my team uses Emacs or Vim, or Clojure, Rust, Zig or Nix, or some browser extensions, or any other tool, nobody could ever directly deny me access or restrict the use of any of that on my machine, some vm-box or EC2. And once I prove their usability to me personally, I show that to my colleagues and typically people when impressed they start using them. Once you hav…

It's more depressing if you work in a big organization where decisions come down from on-high instead of letting teams decide what's best. (Especially if one of those decisions is so-called Agile practices which were about empowering teams against on-high global decisions from management, but that's a digression.)

But yes, treat it as a job, and make time for "fun time" after work at home using your favorite tools and languages and OSes, and you can still be happy, especially because the bills are being paid. And even in restrictive corporations there still may be opportunities to introduce a little of your favorite thing... Clojure itself "snuck in" at a lot of places because it was just another jar, and it's not too hard to shim in a bit of Java code that then turns things over to the Clojure system. You can also try getting away with internal-only tooling.

If I had stayed at my last job a little longer I would have tried putting more effort into sneaking Common Lisp in. I had a few slackbot tools I wrote in Lisp running on my machine that I turned over (with pre-built binaries) to someone else when I left (but I doubt they're running still). The main application was Java, and there was already mandates from security people and others not to use other JVM languages.. at least in application code. I was thinking (and got a prototype working) of sneaking in Lisp via ABCL, but only for selenium web driver tests. It was a neat trick to show some coworkers a difference in workflow: write or edit a web driver test, one of your asserts fails or an action click on some ID that's not there fails, in Java you get an exception and it's over, you'll have to restart the whole thing, which for us was expensive because these test suites typically spun up huge sets of state before starting. But with Lisp, exceptions don't automatically go back up the stack, but pause at the spot they occurred: from there you can do anything in the debugging REPL that you can do normally, redefine functions, classes, whatever, and then resume the computation from where it left off (or at some higher part of the call tree stack if you prefer), thus no expensive restart.

There's also ways to introduce things you like that aren't just different languages. My team started doing "lunch and learns" at most once a week (sometimes less often); if anyone wanted to talk about whatever for 30-60+ mins during a lunch period we'd get together and do it. Sometimes that would be about specific work things being built, sometimes it would be about external stuff, ideas (e.g. the Mikado Method) or tools. Once I did a brief presentation about property testing and later on got the quicktheories library for Java into the codebase and handling some tests, and ended up not being the only one to occasionally make use of it.

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Haven't seen it from that perspective yet. But then you have companies like NuBank, who chose Datatomic / Clojure and trains new devs in it. So it's about tech leadership with a 'nobody got fired for choosing IBM' mindset not wanting to take risks. Go with the 'safe' option... Python, TS, etc and their respective ecosystems and developer pools. Or is the reality that Clojure put you…

> Or is the reality that Clojure put you ahead back in the 2010s, but in 2026 it only offers marginal business value and benefits. How so? Yes, some ideas from early Clojure have leaked into the mainstream, yet "absorbed some FP-flavored features" is not the same as "delivers Clojure's value proposition". Let's examine the proposition: "a language where I can iterate on domain logic at REPL speed with immutable data…

> How so?

I don't know, hence my question.

See Mark's comment above. ML expert, wrote a book about ML for Clojure, but it seems he had to stick to Python, since that's where the ML jobs are. I've read a few times now that Clojure folks think it's much better suited for ML projects and yet Python has 'won' in the marketplace.

I'm just trying to understand why Closure hasn't caught on. It's marketed as a general purpose language, has all these amazing benefits, amazing community but now it's niche and adoption seems to be slowing and that's a shame.

So hopefully this documentary will help to increase adoption. Because I think we can agree it would be nice to see more Clojure jobs.

But what else can be done? Does it need better marketing? Better on-boarding for beginners?

Or is it futile because most newcomers and tech leads won't want to invest the effort to get over the initial bump of a steeper learning curve and see smaller ecosystem as a downside?

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you talk more about those scripts, what are you using it for?

Anything that we previously used Bash or Python for - any complex task delegation from GHA; utility scripts for setting up proper ssh tunneling for various k8s clusters; there's pretty complex CLI tool we build for testing our services in ephemeral SDEs running our pods. Personally: all my MCPs are written in Clojure - https://github.com/agzam/death-contraptions ; I write small web-scraping scripts and automations in…

I think this would be a great candidate for some short video clips to illustrate the power of CLJ / CLJS.

As per our other thread... what can be done to increase adoption.

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Haven't seen it from that perspective yet. But then you have companies like NuBank, who chose Datatomic / Clojure and trains new devs in it. So it's about tech leadership with a 'nobody got fired for choosing IBM' mindset not wanting to take risks. Go with the 'safe' option... Python, TS, etc and their respective ecosystems and developer pools. Or is the reality that Clojure put you…

> Or is the reality that Clojure put you ahead back in the 2010s, but in 2026 it only offers marginal business value and benefits. How so? Yes, some ideas from early Clojure have leaked into the mainstream, yet "absorbed some FP-flavored features" is not the same as "delivers Clojure's value proposition". Let's examine the proposition: "a language where I can iterate on domain logic at REPL speed with immutable data…

I enjoyed both of your long comments, thanks!

I would add one thing to the programming languages conversation: which languages make developers happy to use them? Personally, I have no emotional involvement with Python (sometimes the practical choice, but no excitement). I love using Lisp languages, and enjoy Haskell even though I am not a particularly good Haskell programmer.

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