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The secrets of the Shinkansen

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Re: The secrets of the Shinkansen

#111

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

ta8903 wrote: post #20
Animats wrote: post #13

Japan's railroad system has a big geographic advantage - the country is long and narrow. The railroad system is primarily a long end to end line with short crosswise branches.[1] That's an efficient structure. The branch lines don't have to be fast. Many are still narrow gauge, at 3 ft 6 in. The US had to fill a huge area in the railroad era. That left a lot of underutilized track once the road network got good. [1]…

>the country is long and narrow This is a little counterintuitive but it does make a difference. I recently moved from a coastal city (that is very linear) to a landlocked city spread evenly in all directions. I had naively assumed the new city would be easier to get around in, since on average places would be closer to you. But the first city has decent commuter rail, which meant I could get to the other end of the…

Round cities are even better for rail. You run a line in a circle, like the Yamanote line in Tokyo, and now it has the advantage of periodic boundary conditions. Everywhere is central!

Re: The secrets of the Shinkansen

#112

Post by throw0101d »

pezezin wrote: post #109
throw0101d wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "The Japanese love cars, but they take trains because they have the best railway system in the world" > That's exactly it. It's not because of some cultural bias or whatever. Are there not a lot of toll roads in Japan as well? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_of_Japan#Tolls Also, is not the population density fairly high? There's not as much land to spread in low-density car centric suburbs like there i…

> Also, is not the population density fairly high? There's not as much land to spread in low-density car centric suburbs like there is in (say) the US. LOL no. Outside of the big neighborhoods of the big cities, Japan is endless urban sprawl. I know because I live in a small Japanese city of 40k people and it's just detached houses, small 2-story apartment buildings, a big box stores. Public transportation is almost…

> LOL no. Outside of the big neighborhoods of the big cities, Japan is endless urban sprawl.

And how many people live in those areas?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Urban_di...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_weighted_density

Half the population lives in Tokyo (40M), Osaka (19M), and Nagoya (10M); one-third in the Greater Tokyo Area.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg5XHN_25HQ&t=7m38s

How many folks live inside versus outside the Tokyo-Osaka-Fukuoka rail corridor (Tokaido/Sanyo Shinkansens)? Saoporo is probably the next-largest city outside of that stretch.

Re: The secrets of the Shinkansen

#113

Post by dfxm12 »

Tor3 wrote: post #70

"The Japanese love cars, but they take trains because they have the best railway system in the world" That's exactly it. It's not because of some cultural bias or whatever. I'm in Japan. I use trains because it's so very easy and it's so very reliable. It's simply the best option for travelling. If I wish to go to Tokyo? I check a website quickly, I look up the best connection for my schedule (easy to find), I may pa…

Convenience & simplicity aside, how expensive is it? Not necessarily compared to driving, but just in general. When I went to Japan a long time ago, I remember being kinda shocked at the cost compared to the JR Pass for tourists (which included the Shinkansen), but part of that was to give tourists a huge incentive to spend some money outside of Tokyo, I'm sure, but I remember some fares feeling expensive for people just to head into the city for a night out...

Re: The secrets of the Shinkansen

#114

Post by pipe01 »

littlestymaar wrote: post #69

> the most striking institutional feature of Japanese rail is that it is privately owned by a throng of competing companies. Knowing the author I knew it was going to be his main argument before even opening the blog post. And it's obviously wrong, these companies don't compete with one another, they all have a local monopoly. (The article itself acknowledges that and even acknowledges the organizational benefits of…

There are many places in Japan where multiple companies compete over the same area

Re: The secrets of the Shinkansen

#115

Post by tonyedgecombe »

0x3f wrote: post #84
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The UK is so far gone that the transport authority in it's largest city can't revamp stations or do add-on development without literal years of hand wringing. And even then it's often rejected or reduced in the end. They just finished a line that traverses the whole city. It's 73 miles from end to end and carries one seventh of the UK's rail journeys (600,000 trips per day).

The Elizabeth Line is basically at the bare minimum for a global Asian city. It's not even that good by comparison. It's really a joke that London only has one line of that caliber and it took them literally decades to build. So it's touted as some great success but to me it's a sign of failure. They'll say similar things if they ever finish HSR in California. Yeah I'm sure the end product will be fine but the whole…

I guess your glass is half empty.

Re: The secrets of the Shinkansen

#116

Post by 4ggr0 »

servo_sausage wrote: post #91
Gravityloss wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe some trains could be more redneck coded somehow? Steam trains with sweaty stokers and buffalo shooting from the windows of course had plenty of that, but how to bring something from that aesthetic to the present? Bar carriage with sports screens still sounds still a bit passive and cliche. Maybe a gym car? There are already kid and pet cars after all at least here. In German trains you get a real glass pint for…

I suspect that culturally for Americans to embrace trains, you probably need segregation; a free class and a ticketed class with a bouncer.

i mean the Shinkansen has two classes as well :)

Re: The secrets of the Shinkansen

#117

Post by Tor3 »

throw0101d wrote: post #100
Tor3 wrote: post #70

"The Japanese love cars, but they take trains because they have the best railway system in the world" That's exactly it. It's not because of some cultural bias or whatever. I'm in Japan. I use trains because it's so very easy and it's so very reliable. It's simply the best option for travelling. If I wish to go to Tokyo? I check a website quickly, I look up the best connection for my schedule (easy to find), I may pa…

>> "The Japanese love cars, but they take trains because they have the best railway system in the world" > That's exactly it. It's not because of some cultural bias or whatever. Are there not a lot of toll roads in Japan as well? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_of_Japan#Tolls Also, is not the population density fairly high? There's not as much land to spread in low-density car centric suburbs like there i…

>Are there not a lot of toll roads in Japan as well?

There are, but at least wherever I've been driving or been a passenger, there are alternative roads which are just fine. In general slower, but every so often the toll roads are congested for miles due to a combination of roadwork and a LOT of traffic, which makes them slower than the alternative roads during those times.

As for cars - the Japanese aren't against cars. Many of my neighbors have two cars, particularly dual-income households. And they take very good care of them, as a rule. More than I would - to me a car is just a utility. Not for the Japanese. And people love driving too, at least outside the major cities.

Population density: Technically I live in a town with some 300,000 people. But it used to be nearly a dozen towns until 2006, when Japan decided to do some major restructuring and in many areas a bunch of smaller towns were thrown together to become a larger one. So we're really spread out..

Re: The secrets of the Shinkansen

#118

Post by throw0101d »

Tor3 wrote: post #117
throw0101d wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "The Japanese love cars, but they take trains because they have the best railway system in the world" > That's exactly it. It's not because of some cultural bias or whatever. Are there not a lot of toll roads in Japan as well? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_of_Japan#Tolls Also, is not the population density fairly high? There's not as much land to spread in low-density car centric suburbs like there i…

>Are there not a lot of toll roads in Japan as well? There are, but at least wherever I've been driving or been a passenger, there are alternative roads which are just fine. In general slower, but every so often the toll roads are congested for miles due to a combination of roadwork and a LOT of traffic, which makes them slower than the alternative roads during those times. As for cars - the Japanese aren't against c…

> There are, but at least wherever I've been driving or been a passenger, there are alternative roads which are just fine.

And there are alternatives to the Interstate highway system in the US, but the since the Interstates have no tolls everything is build around them.

Re: The secrets of the Shinkansen

#119

Post by 0x3f »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #115
0x3f wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Elizabeth Line is basically at the bare minimum for a global Asian city. It's not even that good by comparison. It's really a joke that London only has one line of that caliber and it took them literally decades to build. So it's touted as some great success but to me it's a sign of failure. They'll say similar things if they ever finish HSR in California. Yeah I'm sure the end product will be fine but the whole…

I guess your glass is half empty.

No, it's entirely factual, not a matter of outlook.

Otherwise please explain why one new line at this standard per 20-40 years is acceptable for a city that sees itself as world-leading.

Re: The secrets of the Shinkansen

#120

Post by Tor3 »

dfxm12 wrote: post #113
Tor3 wrote: post #70

"The Japanese love cars, but they take trains because they have the best railway system in the world" That's exactly it. It's not because of some cultural bias or whatever. I'm in Japan. I use trains because it's so very easy and it's so very reliable. It's simply the best option for travelling. If I wish to go to Tokyo? I check a website quickly, I look up the best connection for my schedule (easy to find), I may pa…

Convenience & simplicity aside, how expensive is it? Not necessarily compared to driving, but just in general. When I went to Japan a long time ago, I remember being kinda shocked at the cost compared to the JR Pass for tourists (which included the Shinkansen), but part of that was to give tourists a huge incentive to spend some money outside of Tokyo, I'm sure, but I remember some fares feeling expensive for people…

I don't think it's expensive, but then again I'm comparing it to train prices in Northern Europe, which is just painful. There, I'm used to pay for the ticket through gritted teeth. In Japan I can pay for a ticket + limited express (better train w/booked better seat) for a 45 minute ride for what I would pay for a pint of beer at home. Totally worth it. The Shinkansen for a 90 minute ride is not cheap, say ten beers.. Northern Europe beer prices, mind.
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