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The End of Eleventy

brennan.day

111–120 of 195 posts

Re: The End of Eleventy

#111
post #98
post #66

It's sad to see 11ty co-opted like this especially after building a complex project on it with several thousand pages ( https://www.extravirginvault.com/ ). Despite the complexity, I feel like it's only a couple of days work to replatform my site to a more modern SSG like Astro. Unfortunately I don't think anyone feels strongly enough about 11ty to fight for it when the next SSG is a few Claude Code prompts away.

How comes there are only three oils from Greece listed? They are like the OGs in this game!

Well spotted! I'm leaving the OG's like Greece, Spain and Italy till last so I can do them justice.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#112
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal people refuse to learn markdown - they want RTF editor. I could understand someone might refuse learning LaTex but markdown is so simple. RTF editing sucks badly if you have to include it in your project. No one wants to specifically pay for implementing it but they also expect it to be there.

Nowadays you can just use one of those WYSIWYG markdown editors that come with a toolbar (incl. buttons for inserting images) and hide the formatting syntax by default.

That's the easy part, yes.

But each editor also has its issues with generating "backend html" doing bunch of wonky stuff so it works for this editor — using that text in various other places and when you have multiple rich text fields and not single big one to edit whole document is always a major PITA.

Then you get whatever they write to PDF report so for example you have to render HTML correctly there. Amount of ways it can break is basically infinite, getting paragraphs page breaks is non trivial amount of work, especially when customer wants their own layout for the report and not generic looking or just broken layout. So problem is mix and match display of whatever they write in different places.

Not to mention, everyone wants prefilled templates, so they don't start from scratch, oh and your templates need to have dynamically filled in placeholders, now you have to put something like tags that will be updated by your back end.

Maybe you need to send it via API and all kind of companies have WAF on incoming/outgoing data then you have to strip tags.

Yes you can encode/decode, limit options, white list allowed tags, and I was doing that for years now, but amount of things that break is still big and another customer wants you to enable lists when you wanted to support just italic, bold, then you have whole blast radius and feature creep is real.

ROI is just not there, as I mentioned no one wants to specifically pay for all that, we have a really good run telling customers to just use plain text, amount of regressions to be tested, amount of expectations of things to work out of the box once you go with rich text is really high.

Bar to jump to is basically re-implement MS Word — oh did I mention everyone will expect copy pasting from Word to work perfectly - just imagine how much time your customer support has to spend explaining you limited options in that field to be just bold and italic.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#113

Many folks on HN are the exact sorts of people who have lived the thankless popular-enough-to-be-an-unpaid-job solo OSS maintainer dream, so I wonder if you feel as annoyed by the tone of this post as I do. I truly don't understand how the same folks that champion accessibility and humane ideals while humble bragging about working for $5/hour to help get local businesses online can throw so much shade on people who a…

I want Zach to be paid, 11ty is my favourite SSG. I think the way Font Awesome is going about this is unwise. I contribute to the Open Collective of 11ty (as I state in my post). I don't know how that can be misread.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#115
post #82

Many folks on HN are the exact sorts of people who have lived the thankless popular-enough-to-be-an-unpaid-job solo OSS maintainer dream, so I wonder if you feel as annoyed by the tone of this post as I do. I truly don't understand how the same folks that champion accessibility and humane ideals while humble bragging about working for $5/hour to help get local businesses online can throw so much shade on people who a…

The ultimate entitlement is refusing to pay for tooling, while expecting to be getting a paid job as well. I am hard line on not feeling sorry for projects going away, being taken over by organisations, when it mattered people should have actually sponsored them, instead of bosting how great is to get it all for free/gratis. Every, single time, someone posts a cool paid project, there is the usual comment why pay, lo…

Neither side can have it both ways, but there's way too much whining about people not paying.

Want people to pay for your tools? Don't offer them for free.

This is related to my usual point here, that if one offers something for free under a GPL or MIT license, claiming to do so for the betterment of humanity, only to later retract it because corporations profit without paying or AI companies use it for model training, that person is an entitled liar who released proprietary software while using openness and generosity as a marketing strategy.

Proprietary software is fine. Lying about it and using good ideals as marketing strategy is not. That applies as much to "released as MIT so it be useful to many, then unreleased because author realized it might end up in training data of some LLMs (and in so doing, actually become useful to many people)" software, as it does to blogs and all the whining about AI denying them credit (and pre-AI, search engines, except then the developer community was on side of search and not free-but-with-ads/credit publishers).

> Every, single time, someone posts a cool paid project, there is the usual comment why pay, look at MIT/BSD/Apache/... project so and so.

That comes from some combination of the project looking not worth a cent, probably not working (at least not for the use case intended), payments being a big step starting a real multi-party relationship, much distinct from just looking at a webpage or playing with code locally, and the poster being a student or younger.

I too strongly favored MIT over everything when I was a kid. Didn't have money to pay for anything, and GPL was complicated and my slightly older colleagues (with probably more business sense than I) didn't like it.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#116
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true, but nowadays most paid projects end up being perpetual subscriptions. Which I kind of get, as on-going maintenance still costs, but it used to be that you paid for a tool once and only paid again if you wanted/needed an updated version. I'd gladly pay $15-$60 for a tool once (and again if I needed an update) but $10-$15 per month for 20 different things (that I will only use occasionally) is just out of…

How do you imagine it used to be when everything was commercial? On the plus side, at least there wasn't that many magpie development, and rewrites just because. Subscriptions are the only way to fix piracy.

> Subscriptions are the only way to fix piracy.

If you're trying to make people cheer for the pirates, you're succeeding.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#117

Many folks on HN are the exact sorts of people who have lived the thankless popular-enough-to-be-an-unpaid-job solo OSS maintainer dream, so I wonder if you feel as annoyed by the tone of this post as I do. I truly don't understand how the same folks that champion accessibility and humane ideals while humble bragging about working for $5/hour to help get local businesses online can throw so much shade on people who a…

> I wish they would channel their frustrations into helping to find a sustainable model for OSS creators to make a living wage to keep the magic coming

I know you don't want to hear the obvious, but making your passion your paycheck is a one-way ticket to burnout. Even your heroes are still human.

The passion is the magic, and keeping it going requires contrast with something else as a day job. You really don't want to know the pain of losing both because they're one and the same. Burnout is not inevitable nor inherent to age or experience. It's actually the opposite if you set proper boundaries and get a grip.

That said, what's the deal with this topic coming up over and over? Is it just coming from young people too afraid of the broader working world, or is it something more sinister? Is this opinion being propagated by bad actors trying to take advantage of young people wanting to work this way (the "rockstar" delusion)?

Re: The End of Eleventy

#118

> The truth is, there has been no successful CMS for static-site generators because the only people that give a fuck about creating static sites would much prefer to use a (free and local) IDE and a terminal. I think a lot of less technical users would love a desktop app (or a web app integrated with their hosting provider) that lets them manage their website via a GUI, preview their changes with a split-screen view,…

Dreamweaver still exists.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#119
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you imagine it used to be when everything was commercial? On the plus side, at least there wasn't that many magpie development, and rewrites just because. Subscriptions are the only way to fix piracy.

> Subscriptions are the only way to fix piracy. I'm not so sure. If they can't pay for a one-time purchase, they won't be able to afford a subscription. Subscriptions are always more expensive in the end, that's why they exist in the first place. I don't see how people not using the software while still not becoming customers is a fix to anything.

Subscriptions look cheaper for many folks.

As for being able to afford them, yes it cuts people out, many of whom would pirated anyway.

Digital stores, API keys, and SaaS seem to be doing alright

Re: The End of Eleventy

#120
post #116
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you imagine it used to be when everything was commercial? On the plus side, at least there wasn't that many magpie development, and rewrites just because. Subscriptions are the only way to fix piracy.

> Subscriptions are the only way to fix piracy. If you're trying to make people cheer for the pirates, you're succeeding.

Some people will never pay, even if it was one euro, single payment.
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