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What being ripped off taught me

belief.horse

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Re: What being ripped off taught me

#111

Post by ghaff »

brabel wrote: post #105
magicalhippo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do not be afraid to lose business from companies that are squeamish about paying you - in fact actively avoid such companies. My boss said that the ones who have negotiated the best deals are the ones that are late paying, complain about just about every bill and will write angry letters when my boss index adjust pricing. He said it taught him to never offer a really good deal for a regular customer (ie where the u…

Where I live the phone companies do this: you can get a discount every year by calling them and saying you will change companies unless they give you a better price. They always do and the only people paying normal prices are the ones who can’t be bothered to call them every year to request the discount!

And dealing with a lot of that crap is more trouble than many of us want to be filling our days with. Micro-optimizations I might have done as a student I mostly don’t do today.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#112

Post by fn-mote »

brabel wrote: post #105
magicalhippo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do not be afraid to lose business from companies that are squeamish about paying you - in fact actively avoid such companies. My boss said that the ones who have negotiated the best deals are the ones that are late paying, complain about just about every bill and will write angry letters when my boss index adjust pricing. He said it taught him to never offer a really good deal for a regular customer (ie where the u…

Where I live the phone companies do this: you can get a discount every year by calling them and saying you will change companies unless they give you a better price. They always do and the only people paying normal prices are the ones who can’t be bothered to call them every year to request the discount!

These companies are scum. I don't want to be part of this march to the bottom of caring for your customer. Big companies are also different because of the firmness with which they are locked in to the purchasing infrastructure (among other reasons).

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#113

Post by nradov »

fn-mote wrote: post #112
brabel wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live the phone companies do this: you can get a discount every year by calling them and saying you will change companies unless they give you a better price. They always do and the only people paying normal prices are the ones who can’t be bothered to call them every year to request the discount!

These companies are scum. I don't want to be part of this march to the bottom of caring for your customer. Big companies are also different because of the firmness with which they are locked in to the purchasing infrastructure (among other reasons).

Sure, all major US cellular carriers are scum and abuse customers in similar ways. So you'll be part of the march to the bottom whether you want it or not.

It is possible to switch to a smaller VNO with better customer policies. But then your cellular data gets dropped during heavy network congestion, which is probably worse for most of us.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#114

Post by add-sub-mul-div »

999900000999 wrote: post #87

Back in my younger days I found a bunch of liberals who were claiming to run a software company. They were really into the social justice BS. After about a month of employment, I was told I was being rude to ask for payment. Apparently they neglected to tell me that they actually only pay their employees 60 to 70 days after they start. Of course the first red flag was them doing the 1099 dance for slightly above mini…

A bunch of liberals got into my walls and started chewing the wires.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#115

Post by anonymars »

fmx wrote: post #78
eckesicle wrote: post #21

We’ve also learned this lesson the hard way. These are now the clauses we require in every project we do: - Payment is due X days after receipt of invoice, or immediately after the consultant has addressed any quality issues, whichever is sooner - Late payment shall incur interest at 8% above the BoE base rate and a late fee of 100 GBP as per the UK Late Payment Legislation. Partial payments on invoices shall apply t…

> Ironically, the good clients pay within 2-3 days normally, and the difficult ones are very “long tail”. Why ironically? Isn't that exactly what you'd expect?

The ironic part is that the clients that don't need the looser payment terms (more time to pay the invoice) are the ones that get them

Kind of mirrors "it's expensive to be poor"

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#116

Post by ctdinjeu4 »

balbladsaf1231 wrote: post #20

> A contract is toilet paper no it isn't. why you did not sue them? success rate of international arbitrage (New York Convention) proces into China is 90% success rate. USA/EU companies who sue Chineses companies in China for breach of contract seem to be winning rates. Enforcement of USA curt orders do not need to go thorugh Chinese courts again, and are enforced by local authorities (local sharks) with success rate…

[dead]

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#117

Post by nradov »

veunes wrote: post #94
wewewedxfgdf wrote: post #11

Be paid or don't work. I am so deadly serious - do not continue working if your invoices are late. You don't have to be a jerk about it, just explain to your primary contact that you need to be paid and you pick up tools again when the money has arrived. BUT it is on YOU to properly negotiate reasonable payment terms. And if you don;t know or don't trust the client then require payment in advance until a stronger com…

This is all correct in principle, but in practice it's a lot messier

It doesn't have to be messy. A lot of the messiness is self inflicted by contractors who are desperate for work and would be better of just getting a regular employee job instead.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#118

Post by brobdingnagians »

wewewedxfgdf wrote: post #11

Be paid or don't work. I am so deadly serious - do not continue working if your invoices are late. You don't have to be a jerk about it, just explain to your primary contact that you need to be paid and you pick up tools again when the money has arrived. BUT it is on YOU to properly negotiate reasonable payment terms. And if you don;t know or don't trust the client then require payment in advance until a stronger com…

So true. And I'll add, no matter how trustworthy you believe the other party to be based on reptutation, relationships, or otherwise-- they should understand requiring assurances. The worst backstabs are from the people you know and who should know better. And a lot of people will justify it to themselves if they get in trouble. They will continue telling themselves that they are fundamentally good people and it just didn't work out as they rip you off for a lot of money. If they say the equivalent of "why don't you trust me?" that's a red flag.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#119

Post by TravelTechGuy »

Sadly every consultant can tell you at least one (hopefully only one) story about clients who refuse to pay. Either outright, or with some excuse about you "not delivering", or they "not liking" what you delivered. I have one of those stories as well.

My SO has her own story - she ran into a guy whom she later found out does it as a policy: hires people, never pays, threatens to sue them if they publish their story. Her lawyer told her to just forget about it.

It's then that find out the limitations of our legal system: if the client is international, forget about it. If they're out of state, prepare to deal with an expensive legal process taking place where the laws may not always favor you. And even if it's local, and you won in a small claims court - good luck collecting.

I have periodic payments built into all my contracts, with the final payment taking place after acceptance tests, but before me surrendering all materials and code. I won't say this is a 100% bulletproof solution, but the alternatives suck.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#120

Post by TravelTechGuy »

moduspol wrote: post #58
wewewedxfgdf wrote: post #11

Be paid or don't work. I am so deadly serious - do not continue working if your invoices are late. You don't have to be a jerk about it, just explain to your primary contact that you need to be paid and you pick up tools again when the money has arrived. BUT it is on YOU to properly negotiate reasonable payment terms. And if you don;t know or don't trust the client then require payment in advance until a stronger com…

And also: political organizations and churches always must pay up front.

Agreed. Another important lesson I learned when delivering code to a non-profit org, and them asking me to convert my final invoices into "donations" to the org.
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