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Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

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Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#111

Post by brookst »

Koshkin wrote: post #85
brookst wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Jobs, Zuckerberg, and Altman generally seen as experts in childhood development and education?

Parents do not have to be "experts in chilhood development" to know what is best for their children. Especially experts in their fields like the manufacturing of alcohol, guns or other products universallly considered dangerous.

So, if parents can rely on a a century of more of science showing the negative impacts of guns, tobacco, and alcohol on children… they can rely on vibes and politicians for evidence of harm from screens?

I’m not even arguing with you. I’m just disappointed in how quickly so many on HN throw out all pretense of being interested in data as soon as a personal hot button issue comes up. It’s human nature I guess, but still depressing.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#112

Post by lo_zamoyski »

mentalgear wrote: post #15

I remember that - even though Steve Jobs promoted the iPad as a replacement to the 'heavy schoolbooks kids had to carry all day' - he never allowed his children to use iPads. I bet Zuckerberg doesn't allow his children to use social media. And I assume that Sam Altman won't allow his children to use AI chatbots. What does that tell us?

> Steve Jobs promoted the iPad as a replacement to the 'heavy schoolbooks kids had to carry all day'

This is largely an American phenomenon. If you visit some other countries, students don't walk around all day saddled with what look like Medieval tomes in backpacks that come comically close to dwarfing the student. There is no reason for them to be so thick, so heavy, so expensive, hardcover, or even loaned. And there is no reason to lug them around all day either.

Frankly, teachers should be relying more on delivering material in class without a textbook.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#113

Post by lo_zamoyski »

Good for Sweden. Education really ought to be protected from fad-following "pedagogues" and rapacious businesses looking to cash in selling gimmicks. The great historical educational traditions of the past are as relevant today as they ever were. It is a kind of irrational technological big-P Progressive compulsion to think that technology is magical, that x-done-with-latest-tech is better than x-done-without-latest-tech. Technology for technology's sake. It makes an idol out of technology.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#114

Post by brookst »

Argonaut998 wrote: post #98
brookst wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it’s kind of an appeal to authority, without any evidence of authority? I’d be super interested in the panels of experts that Jobs, Zuckerberg, and Altman (assuming GGP’s “asssumption” is correct) convened when making these decisions. Absent that, this isn’t any more persuasive than saying that Coca Cola is good for infants because I assume Coke execs feed it to theirs.

You are making an argument from authority too though. Even ignoring my point, these people have more insight than anyone into their own products and their harmful/beneficial nature.

No, I am making no such argument.

I am saying that tech execs have no special knowledge, and their actions should not be used to inform one’s own opinions or social policy on the topic.

There IS tons of data in this area. Please, do yourself a favor and read it (pay attention to the population of studies —- many use adults in their 30’s or older as proxies for children).

You can absolutely find real data supporting your position. And it will be more persuasive (albeit less dramatic) than imagining what Altman probably does.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#116

Post by szmarczak »

smatti wrote: post #2

A very similar development is going on in neighboring Finland. There are schools that use almost exclusively paper books (instead of digital ones) again. The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids, all the way up to high school. Hand-writing and free drawing with pen and paper provide many advantages to fixed screens. You cannot open a new tab to Youtube in a book. The sign…

> The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids

Any scientific backing that screens are at fault? I don't think so. E-ink tablets do exist. When I'm having children, I'm buying them a remarkable with all the books scanned. Sure, they still need physical sheets of paper and a pen, but they don't have to carry 2-3 kgs of literature.

The major reason against digital literature is that it's free, book authors wouldn't get paid and books wouldn't get sold (Wikipedia / OpenStax / pirated books). Money. It's always been about money.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#117

Post by logicchains »

gritspants wrote: post #4
smatti wrote: post #2

A very similar development is going on in neighboring Finland. There are schools that use almost exclusively paper books (instead of digital ones) again. The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids, all the way up to high school. Hand-writing and free drawing with pen and paper provide many advantages to fixed screens. You cannot open a new tab to Youtube in a book. The sign…

I don't see the advantage of learning 'AI workflows'. I am in the US and there seems to be a FOMO plague infecting our school system when it comes to technology. In practice it seems more destructive to the child.

>I don't see the advantage of learning 'AI workflows'.

Eventually everything that can be learned from a book will be done much better by machines, so for humans to have any chance of being employable they'll need to develop the soft skill of working with intelligent machines.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#118

Post by signa11 »

johanneskanybal wrote: post #69

It sounds good on paper (pun intended) but policy strikes again, "Can my kid bring home her math book so we can work on the parts she's struggling with?" No of course not it lives in a cupboard at school 90% of the time might get some screen shares from it.

why not just buy 2 sets ? problem solved ?

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#119

Post by SSLy »

szmarczak wrote: post #116
smatti wrote: post #2

A very similar development is going on in neighboring Finland. There are schools that use almost exclusively paper books (instead of digital ones) again. The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids, all the way up to high school. Hand-writing and free drawing with pen and paper provide many advantages to fixed screens. You cannot open a new tab to Youtube in a book. The sign…

> The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids Any scientific backing that screens are at fault? I don't think so. E-ink tablets do exist. When I'm having children, I'm buying them a remarkable with all the books scanned. Sure, they still need physical sheets of paper and a pen, but they don't have to carry 2-3 kgs of literature. The major reason against digital literature is…

remarkable also, as the name implies, can be used as a notebook ;-)

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#120

Post by zozbot234 »

dzonga wrote: post #115

look up what you need - print physical pages - use pen | pencil - have a legal pad / notebook at hand - scribble down shit. unfortunately now printing is expensive

Dot-matrix impact printers are still being sold and still have the lowest cost per printed page. The quality sucks, but for draft-only content (like LLM answers) that you're scribbling on it's not an issue. B/W laser printers are not too far behind though, just avoid brands like HP that gouge you on toner cartridges.
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