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Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

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Re: Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

#111

Post by ted_dunning »

rustyhancock wrote: post #33
srean wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reflections will pose a problem though. Two receivers of the same signal may not be from the same proximate source. One could from the original antenna the other from a reflection. Both could be reflected but by different reflectors. Even if the proximate source was the same for both the receivers, triangulation might yield the location of a virtual image of the original source. BTW I am just going by geometry and ma…

Exactly I have friends who have had voice contacts reflecting off aurora at VHF

KP4MD detected wingtip vortices from reflected VHF signals.

https://www.cfmilazzo.com/aircraft-wingtip-vortices

Re: Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

#112

Post by ted_dunning »

teeray wrote: post #93
smegger001 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could probably cheat with the one time pad and use a book as a key, pick a pre determined starting point go diagonally down accross the page convert the letters to numbers and xor that against the message. It would be near enough to random and less conspicuous than a pad of random numbers when searched.

That feels like something that could suffer from frequency analysis.

It's called a book cipher and it is definitely subject to various statistical attacks, especially if you have a list of almost all books.

Re: Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

#113

Post by krapp »

NitpickLawyer wrote: post #12

I wonder why they keep using a dedicated numbers station instead of embedding the code in a regular radio broadcast on a traditional channel? I'm sure that even before LLMs one could find a way to create a story where certain numbers / code words would be embedded without altering the underlying story too much. And they could probably get BBC / whatever station to air it. It would be a bit less inconspicuous to liste…

It doesn't matter that it's conspicuous if it's also unbreakable. It's a simple system that's worked since World War 1, why bother changing it?

Re: Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

#114

Post by wgrover »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #87

> Fernandez, who more than two decades ago published a four-CD audio compendium of hundreds of recordings from around the world called the Conet Project. It's considered the Bible for numbers-station enthusiasts. The Conet Project is an interesting listen -- very analogue, Cold War-ish, and a bit sinister. Seems to be available on the Internet Archive at https://archive.org/details/The-Conet-Project

Fans of the band Wilco will recognize one of the Conet Project's recordings as the source of the woman repeating "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot" in the song "Poor Places" from the eponymous album. Wilco failed to license the sample and the resulting lawsuit gave the Conet Project a portion of Wilco's royalties on that track.

Re: Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

#115

Post by slim »

NitpickLawyer wrote: post #12

I wonder why they keep using a dedicated numbers station instead of embedding the code in a regular radio broadcast on a traditional channel? I'm sure that even before LLMs one could find a way to create a story where certain numbers / code words would be embedded without altering the underlying story too much. And they could probably get BBC / whatever station to air it. It would be a bit less inconspicuous to liste…

because it's purpose is not to transmit any message, but make it look like there are traitors in Iran working for CIA

Re: Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

#116

Post by smegger001 »

ted_dunning wrote: post #112
teeray wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feels like something that could suffer from frequency analysis.

It's called a book cipher and it is definitely subject to various statistical attacks, especially if you have a list of almost all books.

You could probably do something to increase the apparent entropy like xoringing it with an irrational number like tao or pi starting with a digit determined by the date.

Re: Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

#117

Post by tdeck »

JohnFen wrote: post #49
tdeck wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shortwave radios are also cheap and widespread, so it's easy to get one anywhere in the world I always hear this in discussions about number stations, but I don't think this is true in the US. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a general consumer "shortwave radio". Unless the regular AM band counts, which seems to be medium wave.

I'm in the US. At least half of the people I know own shortwave radios, although most don't think of them as "shortwave radios". They're more often called "world radios" or some other such synonym. I could run out to a consumer electronics store right now and buy one. The younger people I know tend to own such a radio in the form of the Baofeng UV-5R or the like.

It's interesting because I wasn't aware of these "world radios" either. Maybe because I'm 34 and they lost popularity before I came of age? I have a ham radio license but I wouldn't consider those radios to be aimed at the ordinary consumer.

Re: Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

#118

Post by mhh__ »

NitpickLawyer wrote: post #12

I wonder why they keep using a dedicated numbers station instead of embedding the code in a regular radio broadcast on a traditional channel? I'm sure that even before LLMs one could find a way to create a story where certain numbers / code words would be embedded without altering the underlying story too much. And they could probably get BBC / whatever station to air it. It would be a bit less inconspicuous to liste…

This was done extensively during ww2 iirc

Re: Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

#119

Post by mhh__ »

coldpie wrote: post #24
NitpickLawyer wrote: post #12

I wonder why they keep using a dedicated numbers station instead of embedding the code in a regular radio broadcast on a traditional channel? I'm sure that even before LLMs one could find a way to create a story where certain numbers / code words would be embedded without altering the underlying story too much. And they could probably get BBC / whatever station to air it. It would be a bit less inconspicuous to liste…

Seems to me like coordinating with an entity outside of the spooks' control, such as the BBC, would give more opportunities for leaks. It would also reveal some information about who is controlling the signal--someone with some kind of relationship with the broadcaster.

You don't tell them why.

Re: Random numbers, Persian code: A mysterious signal transfixes radio sleuths

#120

Post by mhh__ »

So one slightly fascinating bit of number station / espionage radio lore is "RAFTER" an MI5 scheme cooked up by Peter Wright to detect the _receiver_ of the radio using emissions from the internals of the radio set (superhet mixing iirc)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_RAFTER

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