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Slop is not necessarily the future

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Re: Slop is not necessarily the future

#111

Post by thfuran »

paxys wrote: post #100
nocman wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one has ever made a purchasing decision based on how good your code is. absolutely false. > The general public does not care about anything other than the capabilities and limitations of your product. also false. People may not know that the reason they like your product is because the code is so good, but everyone likes software that is mostly free from bugs, performs extremely well, helps them do their work qu…

And yet somehow the shittiest buggiest software ends up being the most popular. Look through the list of top apps in mobile app stores, most used desktop apps, websites, SaaS, and all other popular/profitable software in general and tell me where you see users rewarding quality over features and speed of execution.

I don’t think this search will really reveal speed of execution and feature set rewarded over quality either.

Re: Slop is not necessarily the future

#113

Post by darenr »

Everyone's talking about AI, but let's posit that today's coding models are as good as a SDE on the performance/experience distribution, maybe in the lower quartile, but can we also posit that this will improve and over time the coding models equal and then better the median software engineer? It's not like SDE's are not also churning out poor quality code "it worked for me", "what tests?" "O(what?)", etc, we've all worked with them.

The difference is that over the years while tooling and process have dramatically improved, SDE's have not improved much, junior engineers still make the same mistakes. The assumption is that (not yet proven, but the whole bubble is based on this) that models will continue to improve - eventually leaving behind human SDEs (or other domain people, lawyers, doctors, etc) - if this happens these arguments I keep seeing on HN about AI slop will all be moot.

Assuming AI continues to improve, the cost and speed of software development will dramatically drop. I saw a comment yesterday that predicted that AI will just plateau and everyone will go back to vim and Makefiles (paraphrasing).

Maybe, I don't know, but all these people saying AI is slop, Ra Ra Humans is just wishful thinking. Let's admit it, we don't know how it will play out. There's people like Dario and Sam who naturally are cheerleading for AI, then there's the HN collective who hate every new release of MacOS and every AI model, just on principle! I understand the fear, anyone who's ever read Flora Thompson's Lark Rise to Candleford will see the parallels, things are changing, AI is the plough, the railway, the transistor...

I'm tired on the debate, my experience is that AI (Gemini for me) is awesome, we all have gaps in our knowledge/skills (but not Gemini), AI helps hardcore backend engineers throw together a Gradio demo in minutes to make their point, helps junior devs review their code before making a PR, helps Product put together presentations. I could go on and on, those that don't see value in AI are doing it wrong.

As Taylor Swift said "It's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me" - take that to heart and learn to leverage the tools, stop whining please, it's embarrassing to the whole software industry.

Re: Slop is not necessarily the future

#114

Post by strogonoff »

nocman wrote: post #84
seamossfet wrote: post #31

I find most developers fall into one of two camps: 1. You treat your code as a means to an end to make a product for a user. 2. You treat the code itself as your craft, with the product being a vector for your craft. The people who typically have the most negative things to say about AI fall into camp #2 where AI is automating a large part of what they considered their art while enabling people in group #1 to iterate…

> No one has ever made a purchasing decision based on how good your code is. absolutely false. > The general public does not care about anything other than the capabilities and limitations of your product. also false. People may not know that the reason they like your product is because the code is so good, but everyone likes software that is mostly free from bugs, performs extremely well, helps them do their work qu…

If a product looks pretty and seems to work great at first experience, but is really an unmaintainable mess under the hood, has an unvetted dependency graph, has a poorly thought through architecture that no one understands, perhaps is unsustainable due to a flawed business model, etc., to me it simply suffers from bad design[0], which will be felt sooner or later. If I know this—which is, admittedly, sometimes hard to know (especially in case of software products compared to physical artifacts)—I would, given alternatives, make the choice to not be a customer.

In other words, I would, when possible, absolutely make a purchasing decision based on how good the code is (or based on how good I estimate the code to be), among other things.

[0] The concept of design is often misunderstood. First, obviously, when it’s classified as “how the thing looks”; then, perhaps less obviously, when it’s classified as “how the thing works”. A classification I am arriving at is, roughly, “how the thing works over time”.

Re: Slop is not necessarily the future

#115

Post by paxys »

dcchambers wrote: post #30
simianwords wrote: post #29

People are not emotionally ready to accept that certain layers of abstraction don’t need as much care and effort if they can be automated. We are at the point where a single class can be dirty but the API of the classes should be clean. There’s no point reviewing the internals of a class anymore. I’m more or less sure that they would work as intended. Next step is that of a micro service itself. The api of that micro…

Does performance not matter? What if your AI uses an O(n) algorithm in a function when an O(log n) implementation exists? The output would still be "correct"

As it stands today the average engineer is much more likely to ship an unoptimized algorithm than an AI.

Re: Slop is not necessarily the future

#116

Post by qaid »

seamossfet wrote: post #31

I find most developers fall into one of two camps: 1. You treat your code as a means to an end to make a product for a user. 2. You treat the code itself as your craft, with the product being a vector for your craft. The people who typically have the most negative things to say about AI fall into camp #2 where AI is automating a large part of what they considered their art while enabling people in group #1 to iterate…

Professionally, I've always been in camp #2. The quality of your code at least partially represents you in the eyes of your peers. I imagine this is rapidly changing, but the fact will always remain that readable code that you can reason about is objectively better.

For personal projects, I've been in both camps:

For scripts and one-offs, always #1. Same for prototypes where I'm usually focused on understanding the domain and the shape of the product. I happily trade code quality for time when it's simple, throwaway, or not important.

But for developing a product to release, you want to be able to jump back in even if it's years later.

That said, I'm struggling with this with my newest product. Wavering between the two camps. Enforcing quality takes time that can be spent on more features...

Re: Slop is not necessarily the future

#117

Post by benoau »

ttamslam wrote: post #103
steveBK123 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The longer your product exists the more important the quality of the code will be. This obsession so many have with "get it out the door in 5 seconds" is only going to continue the parade of garbage software that is slow as a dog, and uses gigabytes of memory to perform simple tasks. Exactly. A lot of devs optimizing for whether the feature is going to take a day or an hour, but not contemplating that it's going to…

> but not contemplating that it's going to be out in the wild for 10 years either way I think there are a lot of developers working in repos where it's almost guaranteed that their code will _not_ still be there in 10 years, or 5 years, or even 1 year.

In my experience the code will, but by year 5 nobody is left who worked on it from inception, and by year 10 nobody knows anybody who did, and during that time it reaches a stage where nobody will ever feel any sense of ownership or care about the code in its entirety again.

Re: Slop is not necessarily the future

#118

Post by bakugo »

quantummagic wrote: post #78
seamossfet wrote: post #31

I find most developers fall into one of two camps: 1. You treat your code as a means to an end to make a product for a user. 2. You treat the code itself as your craft, with the product being a vector for your craft. The people who typically have the most negative things to say about AI fall into camp #2 where AI is automating a large part of what they considered their art while enabling people in group #1 to iterate…

This is a very useful insight. It nicely identifies part of the reason for the stark bifurcation of opinion on AI. Unfortunately, many of the comments below it are emotional and dismissive, pointing out its explanatory limitations, rather than considering its useful, probative value.

"I have an opinion and everyone on the planet agrees with me, if you disagree, you don't matter" is not a useful insight, and is, in fact, far more emotional and dismissive than any of the replies to it.

Re: Slop is not necessarily the future

#119

Post by alecbz »

seamossfet wrote: post #31

I find most developers fall into one of two camps: 1. You treat your code as a means to an end to make a product for a user. 2. You treat the code itself as your craft, with the product being a vector for your craft. The people who typically have the most negative things to say about AI fall into camp #2 where AI is automating a large part of what they considered their art while enabling people in group #1 to iterate…

Craft, in coding or anything else, exists for a reason. It can bleed over into vain frivolity, but craft helps keep the quality of things high.

Craft often inspires a quasi-religious adherence to fight the ever-present temptation to just cut this one corner here real quick, because is anything really going to go wrong? The problems that come from ignoring craft are often very far-removed from the decisions that cause them, and because of this craft instills a sense of always doing the right thing all the time.

This can definitely go too far, but I think it's a complete misunderstanding to think that craft exists for reasons other than ensuring you produce high-quality products for users. Adherents to craft will often end up caring about the code as end-goal, but that's because this ends up producing better products, in aggregate.

Re: Slop is not necessarily the future

#120

Post by pizzly »

The current iteration of models don't write clean code by itself but future ones will. The problem in my view is extremely similar to agentic/vibe coding. Instead of optimizing for results you can optimize for clean code. The demand is there, clean code will lead to less bugs, faster running code and less tokens used (thus less cost) when understanding the code from a fresh session. It makes sense that the first generation of vibe coding focused on the results first and not clean code. Am I missing something?
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