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Long Range E-Bike (2021)

jacquesmattheij.com

111–120 of 345 posts

Re: Long Range E-Bike (2021)

#111
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes” This is simply wrong and does a disservice to the growing eBike interest. The US-federally defined classes are proper and while IMO overly limiting (max speed should be 60kph and still classified as an eBike as it’s simply safer in traffic), they adequately classify what is an eBike and what is not, and having a throttle does not make something not an eBik…

60kmph / 37mph is very fast for somebody who might just be wearing a bicycle helmet (hopefully). If traffic is going that fast, I think it may just not be the appropriate place for a bicycle to be. I've gone that fast on an e-bike before, and it doesn't feel comfortable nor safe.

I agree with having a good helmet, however to be honest my first motorbike ride and car drive at 60kmh were terrifying. Also many people never bicycle even in a 30kmh limites zone because they don’t feel safe.

But I don’t want to downplay speed, as you noted it’s probably the key: most motorbike death are because speed or loose of control without involving any other vehicle. Also small cylinders (< 50cc) are almost absent in the death toll. If suicidal motorbikes with good helmet are allowed, so should be the bicyclists (with good helmet).

Re: Long Range E-Bike (2021)

#112

Sort of a hijack, but it rides on the awesomeness that e-bikes can bring about. They truly are incredible if you have never gotten to ride one. E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes E-peds, e-motos, electric motorycle, whatever. Just don't call them ebikes. The problem is people (especially kids) getting what are essentially electric motorcycles, thinking they are ebikes, and then causing all so…

I have a disability and can't pedal for many minutes or hours straight, but my electric scooter with a throttle is absolutely amazing for helping me get around areas that would otherwise require tons of walking (or pedaling). I guess I'm a demon that needs to be regulated out of existence?

Re: Long Range E-Bike (2021)

#113
post #72

The aerodynamic situation of a bicycle is so disadvantageous that the easiest way to get a long range e-bike is to simply ride more slowly. People internalize beliefs about energy-range ratios from electric cars, but they don't translate well to bicycles.

It is kind of a shame that recumbent bikes are expensive and bike nerd coded. A recumbent e-bike with an aeroshell would be fantastically efficient and useful in so many situations, but if you tried to buy one today it is going to cost as much as a car and have everybody else sneering at you.

Re: Long Range E-Bike (2021)

#114

Very cool. Thanks for sharing. I have an ebike myself and have considered just strapping extra battery packs to the frame so that I can just swap when required. In the end, I mostly take shorter trips (I’ve had it since Dec and my odo only reads three figures). Speaking of R&M, I have wanted to get one of their bikes that has the child container area in the front. I saw one guy with one and it looked pretty awesome.…

I was disappointed to discover that my e-bike could not charge and power the drivetrain at the same time. Visions of range extending backpacks were dashed in an instant.

Re: Long Range E-Bike (2021)

#115
post #18

Sort of a hijack, but it rides on the awesomeness that e-bikes can bring about. They truly are incredible if you have never gotten to ride one. E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes E-peds, e-motos, electric motorycle, whatever. Just don't call them ebikes. The problem is people (especially kids) getting what are essentially electric motorcycles, thinking they are ebikes, and then causing all so…

> Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists. In particular quite a few elderly people seem to have picked it up in my city, they aren't quite strong riders but definitely seem able of adapting to normal traffic. It also seems like a significantly safer option for individual transp…

> The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists.

That's exactly my use case. I've got a bad leg and this thing made all the difference for longer rides.

Re: Long Range E-Bike (2021)

#116
post #72

The aerodynamic situation of a bicycle is so disadvantageous that the easiest way to get a long range e-bike is to simply ride more slowly. People internalize beliefs about energy-range ratios from electric cars, but they don't translate well to bicycles.

It is kind of a shame that recumbent bikes are expensive and bike nerd coded. A recumbent e-bike with an aeroshell would be fantastically efficient and useful in so many situations, but if you tried to buy one today it is going to cost as much as a car and have everybody else sneering at you.

They're also a great way to get really badly hurt.

Re: Long Range E-Bike (2021)

#117

Sort of a hijack, but it rides on the awesomeness that e-bikes can bring about. They truly are incredible if you have never gotten to ride one. E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes E-peds, e-motos, electric motorycle, whatever. Just don't call them ebikes. The problem is people (especially kids) getting what are essentially electric motorcycles, thinking they are ebikes, and then causing all so…

I agree. I thought the electric motorcycle problem was overstated by people complaining online at first. Then they became popular around my house and I agree it’s a huge problem. I’m fortunate enough to live around a lot of walking and mixed use trails for bikes and pedestrians. Recently they’re unsafe to use in the evenings because you have to be ready to jump out of the way of groups of kids (plus a few adults who…

why is the throttle the issue and not just the 45MPH? would it be better with pedals and people peddling along in some only-would-ever-make-sense-on-an-ebike gear, but still going 45?

the problem is recklessnesss and speed, restrict and enforce those things, don't just let the bike makers shift the product 10% and re-create exactly the same issue, but "legally"

Re: Long Range E-Bike (2021)

#118
post #7

In my city, travel habits and condition, I find I wish for more torque and lower speed. Every place I want to go has significant hills that the motor can't handle, and easing climbing hills is the main reason I want an ebike. My ebike's minimum speed for the motor is 15kph, which is ok by myself, but my family likes to go slower, so I have to go fully manual with them. When I look at ebike ads it feels like nobody el…

Assuming it's a relatively cheap e-bike with a motor on the rear wheel (a hub motor), that's likely the motor being starved out of phase amps that create torque, rather than the motor being weak. Especially if it's large and heavy Direct Drive motor with no internal gearing. These need a strong controller (power supply) to feed them current, as voltage doesn't matter for torque.

But generally it's not the motor itself that's weak, it's just got a weak power supply (and potentially weak battery BMS. Some controllers tie phase amp output to battery amp input by some 2 to 2.5x multiplication ratio.)

Going from a generic KT 22A controller to a 35A KT will give over +50% torque. Up till the motor hits magnetic saturation, torque scales linearly with the amps. The thinnest kind of direct drive (27mm magnets) can hit 80-90nm too. Most of those are 30mm nowadays and can push 100nm tho.

On the geared hub motor side, the G062 (most 750w bikes use clones of it) can push 90nm before there's a risk of stripping nylon gears. Smaller ones like the G310 may strip gears earlier. These generally need less amps to produce torque than direct drive, so they work better with poor electrical systems.

Worth mentioning that wheel size matters for torque on hub motors. Larger wheels need more torque to climb (thrust). And also motor wattage doesn't mean much for torque (phase amps from the controller and gearing affect that even on bikes sold with the same wattage rating).

I also find the throttle gatekeeping or wattage gatekeeping a bit silly. Going 25kmh by throttle or peddling has no difference in how dangerous a cyclist is on the road. They should cap top speed and acceleration on throttles, but banning them outright unless someone is doing a minimum cycling motion on the pedals is a wrong regulatory approach and limits accessibility.

Throttles above 6kmh (walk assist) are banned across the whole of Europe. Judging by how heavily the Netherlands pushed for the EU-wide throttle ban, and putting my tin foil hat on, I can assume this was done as regulatory capture to ban Chinese ebikes from local stores, as they come with throttles and aren't usually capped at 25kmh on pedal assist. Netherlands produced ebikes are all pedal assist only, mid-drive, and have very poor batteries and electrical stuff for the (over 2x) price they're sold for. And now they have less competition. EU also has a 45% tariff on "e-bike part" imports...

I would also like a regulatory framework to register and insure a faster e-bike (as imo they should not cap wattage and cripple the hill climbing torque, only speed/acceleration) for adults. Right now you can only register one that has a license in EU. If you build your own, it can never be legal, even if you have a motorcycle license and want to insure it. This class of e-bike is impossible to drive legally right now.

L1-b class registration can technically do this, but it needs the bike to be registered in Europe. No e-bike has this. No manufacturers sell class L1-b e-bikes registered in the EU. Only some electric motorcycles afaik.

Re: Long Range E-Bike (2021)

#119

Sort of a hijack, but it rides on the awesomeness that e-bikes can bring about. They truly are incredible if you have never gotten to ride one. E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes E-peds, e-motos, electric motorycle, whatever. Just don't call them ebikes. The problem is people (especially kids) getting what are essentially electric motorcycles, thinking they are ebikes, and then causing all so…

As an alternative mode of transportation, that could/should replace car usage for many people, I think we need to separate the two completely as well. The throttle version needs to be regulated more like a motorcycle or moped. This would take it out of the hands of most kids and cause license suspension worries for young adults and other reckless users. I agree they are essentially death machines and governments gene…

> could/should replace car usage for many people

Motorcycles already did that. E-bikes or E-motos do not bring any advantages compared to normal motorbikes, so you shouldn't expect many people to switch.

Re: Long Range E-Bike (2021)

#120
post #19

I think that size of battery would move it into requiring a motorcycle license here in Switzerland, just based on the size alone. And if it goes faster than 45km/h then definitely. I have my motorcycle license and have been considering getting something that I can ride all day. Only problem is that if it's classified as a motorcycle license I don't think I can take it in the train like a bike if I run out of juice fa…

I know we all carry fully charged batteries in our pockets and sometimes keep them in our ears too. But something about travelling in crowded and closed space like train with a fully charged diy (or even commercial) battery pack sounds risky. This is one of the reasons I didn't go for a diy replacement of TWS pair with dead batteries.

I would never take that pack on a train (or any other closed transport). That would be criminal, but then again, I think that that's the case for all e-bikes. I've seen way too many videos of packs going up without a warning and there is a ton of really bad advice out there from well meaning individuals who have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

The welds on this pack are very good, I have checked and re-checked all of them, inspected the pack using a FLIR while running at maximum charge / discharge just to make sure there is no hidden jump in resistance or a bad cell. The whole thing is wrapped in shock absorbent foam but it still is a massive pack and if it were to go into thermal runaway there is just too much energy there to be dealt with.

It stays outside and is charged outside and I'm monitoring the cells groups to mV precision to make sure that they're not misbehaving. I'm not taking any risks with 170 charged 18650s, if I would so much as drop or bump the bike I would discharge the pack and dismantle it.

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