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Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

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Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am firmly against marijuana legalization. This is partially because of this insanity of the pro-legalization arguments. this is also just motivated reasoning The insanity of the fringe pro-legalization arguments has no bearing on whether legalization is a good idea or not. > When I would see friends/family that started smoking regularly become noticeably less intelligent while pro-legalization proponents would ar…

I have two friends who started at a young age and they fucked their lives with this shit. It's not anecdotal at this point.

That... is an anecdote...

Not suggesting people should smoke weed when they're young etc, but there's a reason that we do these gigantic, extremely complex, extremely failure-prone things called clinical trials to actually ascertain the effects of drugs in the body.

It's because we've found over and over and over and over and over that the "I know N people who X then Y" claims were wrong.

For example: Why did those two people start smoking weed so young? Were their lives, families, and personalities otherwise the same as everyone else? Probably not!

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#112

Marijuana legalization arguments were my first introduction to motivated reasoning. I was pretty inclined to agree that locking up non-violent drug offenders was a net-harm to society. But, the pro-legalization folks would argue patently crazy things: it cures cancer, the smoke isn't bad for you at all, there are no downsides! etc. It seemed obvious to me that you could make a more realistic argument and just stick t…

Honestly, I consider myself a "centrist", but I'm always frustrated how that means "do not take sides" for some people (not saying that is your case). In this case, not taking sides means that weed is illegal and people go to jail if they dare to use it. In the country that I was born, it's still illegal. I know stoners there and it's crazy how they could spent years in prison if someone told the police that they cultivate cannabis in their house. They do not sell and do not share with anyone, but they are one call away to be jailed.

I get it when people talk about society effects, but how are my friends dangerous while buying and drinking a lot of alcohol is totally okay? Taking no sides in this case is just maintaining status quo, which is not a "centrist position" when one side can be jailed for using weed.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am firmly against marijuana legalization. This is partially because of this insanity of the pro-legalization arguments. When I would see friends/family that started smoking regularly become noticeably less intelligent while pro-legalization proponents would argue there are no negative side-effects, or people who were obviously compelled to smoke every day or as often as they could.... like some sort of addiction, w…

I'm curious, do you also think alcohol and tobacco should be banned? I definitely believe that marijuana use can lead to negative consequences, but I still think it is less dangerous than either of those 2 substances.

They will say yes, but you will never see most of them defending that in any news about alcohol or tobacco. For some, it's just a way to ignore the hypocrisy corner.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think their lives would be substantially better if they had been arrested and sentenced to lengthy prison terms? Alcohol can have a well-documented destructive effect on people's lives. Should it also be made illegal?

I don't know, but I think your comment would be substantially better without false dilemmas and manipulative appeals to emotion.

They were both appealing to emotion, though.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#115
post #57

Part of the issue with legal weed is it's much like if all alcohol was sold as minorly different varieties of Everclear at 150+ ABV, and brands primary boast was just how potent and alcoholic their mix is. It doesn't encourage appropriate usage and IIRC many of these cases of psychosis are from consuming high THC products 24/7 for weeks/months/years on end. If anyone is curious, check out brands like Rove, Dompen, Ca…

I use gummies, ~4-5mg THC (ideally with some of the other TH- chemicals in it), deliberately kept my tolerance low so it doesn’t get more expensive (and I almost only use it for sleep, purely “fun” use is maybe a couple days a year). Take in the evening, start an MST3K episode about an hour later, really enjoy the back half of it, go to bed and fall asleep instantly, wake up feeling like a million bucks. Perfect even…

I see a lot of people using weed for better sleep, but isn't weed supposed to interfere with REM states? I thought that weed would have the opposite effect that you say. Do you dream if you use weed before bed?

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use gummies, ~4-5mg THC (ideally with some of the other TH- chemicals in it), deliberately kept my tolerance low so it doesn’t get more expensive (and I almost only use it for sleep, purely “fun” use is maybe a couple days a year). Take in the evening, start an MST3K episode about an hour later, really enjoy the back half of it, go to bed and fall asleep instantly, wake up feeling like a million bucks. Perfect even…

I see a lot of people using weed for better sleep, but isn't weed supposed to interfere with REM states? I thought that weed would have the opposite effect that you say. Do you dream if you use weed before bed?

It’s a pretty low dose, doesn’t exactly send me into space—heavy users might need 10x or more that dose to even feel it—just enough to make my brain shut up so I can fall asleep. I think a lot of folks who have a bad time when they try it start at far too high a dose (I wouldn’t even start at 5mg, maybe shoot for like 2), I also don’t much enjoy being properly high, anything past what you’d call a heavyish buzz I find unpleasant (and my standard nighttime dose doesn’t even quite get me to the heavier end of a buzz, that’s more the 7-10mg range for me, though I’d caution that some gummies seem more potent and some nominal-5s do get me closer to that than others)

I dunno about sleep quality effects, but it’s definitely better than even a couple beers (for me, these days) and it’s way better than lying awake until 3am… for the third night in a row. For most of the night it should be mostly worn-off, again, I’m not taking a ton and it takes longer to work through you in edible form than smoking, but we’re still talking less than half the night, especially as I usually time it so it hits just a little while before bed (I don’t want to get in bed without it having hit yet).

I don’t remember having had dreams most nights anyway, so I don’t know about that. Even with some help I’m typically a bit under the low side of the amount of sleep I ought to be getting, over a week. Lucky if I break the eight-hour mark two days of the seven, usually in the 6.5-7.5 range the rest (I don’t take a gummy every single night, either, gotta keep that tolerance at bay). I think I dream (or, at least, remember it) more when I get the rare series of several days of 8+ hours, but I don’t track it so can’t say for sure, and yeah, no idea the effect of weed on that.

I can vouch that at my dose level I get way better sleep than I did the one time I tried a prescription sleep aid, which was Lunesta. If I didn’t get a solid 9 hours on that I’d wake up feeling hung-over, weed doesn’t give me extra trouble like that if I fail to get a full 8+ hours. Hell, even a “good” night on lunesta didn’t leave me feeling awesome in the morning. Other downsides: it mixes worse with other things, had a glass of wine with dinner? Better think twice about the lunesta, at least according to the label. On some decongestant medicine (in addition to antibiotics) for a sinus infection, and the sinus infection is wrecking your ability to sleep so you could really use it? Might not be able to take it with the other stuff. Weed’s so much better for those cases especially, bump the dose slightly and nothing short of something that’s gonna hospitalize me will be able to keep me from sleeping, and it famously doesn’t interact badly with very many other drugs, so it removes the very worst thing about most common illnesses like that (for me, anyway) which is the extreme sleep disruption.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no established causal link between the two. Cannabis is so ubiquitous that it is often the case that people with underlying psychiatric problems find it calms them and then blame cannabis for it if they get worse, because that's saving face in a twisted way. Link is not the same as "it causes it".

In my subjective experience cannabis does tend to nudge some part of the brain into edit mode. What happens afterwords depends on the person. For me it upended a lot of my alignment with the contemporary consensus morality. Before marijuana I had a sense that the morality wasn’t actually well foundationed, or at least it was equivalent to a religion in that respect, but my mind seemed to avoid thinking about it too m…

Bear in mind that majority of people with diagnosed Schizophrenia tend to smoke cigarettes / tobacco. But this is never raised the same way as cannabis is.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#118
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> major immediate drastic effects Very few things in life pass that test, which is why we have research studies

Right we have studies, and they are 30 page documents that only academics read, and so they get poorly summarized by articles that try to make them sound more noteworthy than they are. Usually by saying "X linked to Y" without establishing causality or even if that link is a significant risk (is it a .1% increase in risk?) When it's a drug more than 10% of the US population uses, we can immediately say the risk incre…

> Probably still safer than alcohol

I think it really depends upon how it's consumed

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, but I think your comment would be substantially better without false dilemmas and manipulative appeals to emotion.

They were both appealing to emotion, though.

Arguably yes, arguably no.

I don't know either of them and have never noticed comments by either until now, but it seems to me that one is speaking autobiographically, describing how their view changed after personal experience they detailed, while explicitly admitting the ultimate rational insufficiency of such a position, even stating there may be sufficient counterexamples to contradict their experience. If that's an appeal to emotion it's either a highly insidious or a pretty impotent one. It doesn't read either way to me, but in either case I'm content to give them the benefit of the doubt, based on the general tone of their comment.

The other is simultaneously purely argumentative and fallacious in every regard, and lacks any evidence of even a shred of self-awareness, unlike its parent comment. It's shabby argumentative rhetoric lacking any insight or particular substance. There's a much better argument to be made from their viewpoint, but they didn't make anything resembling it.

Their other comment in the thread is similar in tone and form. People expressing concerns about marijuana potency increasing over time were summarily 'refuted' as actually arguing for smoking more material to achieve the same high. It's very r/iamverysmart, and it also checks off another fallacy box.

Like their other comment, there's a worthwhile point to be made there, but that wasn't it. Every useful argument has to acknowledge its own weakness (because every argument has one). One of them did, one of them didn't even attempt to.

I care less about what particular positions people hold and a lot more about how they hold them. I'd rather read high-minded debate between people who've arrived at their opinions after grappling with contradiction, than pithy dismissals of worthwhile comments.

And if one notes that I am guilty of the same, while fair, please consider that the comment to which I originally replied was far from worthwhile.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#120
post #6

I used to read forums for schizophrenics (self disorders fascinate me, look the term up if you want to understand schizophrenia), and it was the consensus there that out of all the recreational drugs cannabis caused the greatest deterioration in one's mental state. Those are generally fairly sick people, but I don't think one can just ignore this signal. I personally went catatonic once after consumption, and I'm not…

I'd been a casual user for a while (very sporadically in illegal days, regularly once legalized). I happened to going through a fairly traumatic breakup, and felt that if it didn't actually help me get to sleep, it at least made the insomnia tolerable.

My life settled down, but I continued to smoke a tiny bit. One puff really, before bed pretty much every night. When things were crazy and awful, I didn't care about feeling mossy the next day, but as normal life resumed, it definitely started to affect my attention.

Then, the "intrusive thoughts" started. It's like having an edge lord in your head. Whatever you think about, the idea gets lensed(?) from the worst/most extreme possible viewpoint/conclusion. It's hard to describe, but it was very distracting, and often just depressing. And of course, waking up at 3am every night, this is what I had to look forward to. And sometimes, I'd take a little toke in the hopes I'd get back to sleep.

Here's the punchline: I quit smoking and it went away in two days and hasn't returned.

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