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11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

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Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#111

Post by dariosalvi78 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #74
dariosalvi78 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but rules for citizenship are all different and are being made harder and harder because, well, that's what sells today. Also some countries (cough, Germany, cough) have incredibly stupid rules where you have to give up your own citizenship in order to get a new one.

I think it's perfectly normal to expect someone to give up their old citizenship when becoming citizen in a different country. When you become a citizen, that country is responsible for getting you out of international conflicts and arranging passports (which are essentially documents that say "you should let this person in because of the good relationship our two governments have"), and in turn you're expected to tu…

It's clear to me that you don't have the experience of being an immigrant.

There is nothing "normal" in expecting to renounce to a previous citizenship if you gain another one [1]. As an Italian citizen living in Sweden I obtained the Swedish citizenship (fortunately before the current government makes it way harder) but I'd never give up my Italian one. I "feel" Italian and owe my country a lot and my happily go back at some point, but I also feel like having the Swedish citizenship is useful, and allows me to vote in a country where I have chosen to live for a good chunk of my life.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_citizenship

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#112

Post by Am4TIfIsER0ppos »

hiprob wrote: post #103
Am4TIfIsER0ppos wrote: post #9

Are you going to let them vote or let them not pay taxes? I know which I'd rather.

are you scared by that premise?

More people voting you mean? No. I can't vote so I want to be exempt from paying taxes.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#113

Post by light_hue_1 »

rmah wrote: post #101
light_hue_1 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not misleading. I have no idea why people are voting this down. It's just a simple fact. We have 3 parts of the federal government we can vote for: executive, senate, and house. Yet, the vast majority of people reading this have never cast a vote that mattered in any of those. I certainly have not. Most states are not competitive when it comes to electoral votes. It doesn't matter if 100% of MA or CA comes out.…

I see. So by "cannot vote for" you meant "did not vote for". Thanks for clearing it up.

I don't understand if you're intentionally obstinate or just oddly brainwashed? I'll try one last time, in a simple sentence.

Cannot vote for means even if the entire result is tied and it hinges on one vote, my vote does not count under any circumstances; it can't change the outcome at all.

Is that better? 85% of Americans are literally in this situation.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#114

Post by youngtaff »

maccard wrote: post #71
RandomLensman wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there no differences in obligations between the two (e.g., draft)?

It’s going to wildly depend on the countries, but between the UK and Ireland, no. You do have to swear allegiance to the monarchy in the UK, which some people may feel more or less positively about.

It's kinda bizarre that we make people who want to become citizens swear allegiance to the Monarchy

I’m British and have never sworn, or ever will swear allegiance to the Monarchy

I believe the UK should be a republic in the Irish sense i.e. no monarchy and a symbolic president

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#115

Post by jeroenhd »

dariosalvi78 wrote: post #111
jeroenhd wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's perfectly normal to expect someone to give up their old citizenship when becoming citizen in a different country. When you become a citizen, that country is responsible for getting you out of international conflicts and arranging passports (which are essentially documents that say "you should let this person in because of the good relationship our two governments have"), and in turn you're expected to tu…

It's clear to me that you don't have the experience of being an immigrant. There is nothing "normal" in expecting to renounce to a previous citizenship if you gain another one [1]. As an Italian citizen living in Sweden I obtained the Swedish citizenship (fortunately before the current government makes it way harder) but I'd never give up my Italian one. I "feel" Italian and owe my country a lot and my happily go bac…

> I "feel" Italian and owe my country a lot and my happily go back at some point

Then that settles it, no? You're an Italian citizen who happens to work abroad, not Swedish citizen material.

> Swedish citizenship is useful

That's probably where the friction lies, countries see citizenship as something of greater importance than something to obtain because it's "useful".

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#116

Post by jplaz »

kyboren wrote: post #87
jplaz wrote: post #4

Puerto Rico pays taxes to the U.S. government, yet its residents cannot vote in federal elections. Additionally, the Jones Act increases costs even more than on the mainland.

That's not entirely true. Yes, Puerto Ricans do pay some federal taxes (tariffs, FICA, gift and estate taxes) but do not pay federal income tax unless they have income from sources outside Puerto Rico. Anyway many Puerto Ricans probably wish they were subject to federal income tax: As the cutoff point for income taxation in Puerto Rico is lower than that imposed by the U.S. IRS code and because the per- capita income…

Puerto Ricans do pay certain federal taxes. However, they generally do not pay federal income tax unless they earn income from sources outside of Puerto Rico. I didn’t get this information from Wikipedia-- I already knew this. Also, I never said anything about federal income tax in my original comment. If you believe something I said was incorrect, please point out specifically what was not true.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#117

Post by dariosalvi78 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #115
dariosalvi78 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clear to me that you don't have the experience of being an immigrant. There is nothing "normal" in expecting to renounce to a previous citizenship if you gain another one [1]. As an Italian citizen living in Sweden I obtained the Swedish citizenship (fortunately before the current government makes it way harder) but I'd never give up my Italian one. I "feel" Italian and owe my country a lot and my happily go bac…

> I "feel" Italian and owe my country a lot and my happily go back at some point Then that settles it, no? You're an Italian citizen who happens to work abroad, not Swedish citizen material. > Swedish citizenship is useful That's probably where the friction lies, countries see citizenship as something of greater importance than something to obtain because it's "useful".

I would say that it's not just useful, it should be a basic right. In my case as an EU citizen, Swedish citizenship gives me little more than I already have (voting rights, easier to get passport), but for those who come from outside the EU, citizenship is a question that affects all their life and of their family.

Just go and ask any immigrant friend if you have any. Just stop conflating citizenship with any sort of identity or morality, there is nothing like that.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#118

Post by kyboren »

jplaz wrote: post #116
kyboren wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not entirely true. Yes, Puerto Ricans do pay some federal taxes (tariffs, FICA, gift and estate taxes) but do not pay federal income tax unless they have income from sources outside Puerto Rico. Anyway many Puerto Ricans probably wish they were subject to federal income tax: As the cutoff point for income taxation in Puerto Rico is lower than that imposed by the U.S. IRS code and because the per- capita income…

Puerto Ricans do pay certain federal taxes. However, they generally do not pay federal income tax unless they earn income from sources outside of Puerto Rico. I didn’t get this information from Wikipedia-- I already knew this. Also, I never said anything about federal income tax in my original comment. If you believe something I said was incorrect, please point out specifically what was not true.

It wasn't incorrect, it was just misleading. Hence, "That's not entirely true," rather than, "Liar liar pants on fire!"

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#119

Post by rmah »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #113
rmah wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. So by "cannot vote for" you meant "did not vote for". Thanks for clearing it up.

I don't understand if you're intentionally obstinate or just oddly brainwashed? I'll try one last time, in a simple sentence. Cannot vote for means even if the entire result is tied and it hinges on one vote, my vote does not count under any circumstances; it can't change the outcome at all. Is that better? 85% of Americans are literally in this situation.

So every time your side loses a vote is equivalent to "cannot vote for"? Interesting perspective.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#120

Post by jplaz »

kyboren wrote: post #118
jplaz wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Puerto Ricans do pay certain federal taxes. However, they generally do not pay federal income tax unless they earn income from sources outside of Puerto Rico. I didn’t get this information from Wikipedia-- I already knew this. Also, I never said anything about federal income tax in my original comment. If you believe something I said was incorrect, please point out specifically what was not true.

It wasn't incorrect, it was just misleading. Hence, "That's not entirely true," rather than, "Liar liar pants on fire!"

I understand how it might have seemed misleading, but what I said was accurate. Puerto Rico does pay taxes to the U.S. government, yet its residents can’t vote in federal elections.
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