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Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#111

Post by cyberax »

sam345 wrote: post #97
legitster wrote: post #32

So I don't think I actually have a problem with businesses handing over their customer data if there is a valid warrant or subpoena. That's the system working as intended. The main crux of the problem here is that the DHS has been granted a wide berth by congress to issue administrative subpoenas - i.e. not reviewed by a real judge and not directed at criminals. In "good" times this made investigations run smoothly.…

I'm not an expert in fourth amendment but I do know that assuming a subpoena without judicial oversight violates the fourth amendment is not correct. All the fourth amendment guarantees is unreasonable search and seizure. In some circumstances a judicial subpoena may be necessary and others not. An administrative subpoena implies that there has been a legal procedure and the administrative agencies are not exactly ru…

DHS/ICE is in a weird constitutional spot. Most immigration violations in the US are _civil_ violations. So the Fourth Amendment is less applicable. It's also why detained immigrants don't automatically get the right to be represented by a lawyer.

ICE/DHS technically are just acting as marshals, merely ensuring that defendants appear at court proceedings and then enforcing court decisions (deportations).

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#112

Post by try_the_bass »

worik wrote: post #91
mindslight wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm getting tired of these comments that normalize being in the middle of the slippery slope as if it is merely the same as being at the top of the slippery slope was. They may not have been "good" times, but they were certainly better times when government agencies at least aimed to carry out their roles in good faith rather than minmaxing the rules to cause the most damage to enemies of the Party. Applying judgemen…

No. The difference now is the number of people feeling effected It always been thus for people at the margins

> It always been thus for people at the margins

It's worth pointing out that "criminals" are generally "people at the margins"... If for no other reason than to point out that pithy comments like this are often so vague as to be worthless, or even counter-productive!

It's also a good thing that antisocial behavior is often isolated to "the margins", so your statement can even be considered a good thing, by the same metric!

TL;DR: Twitterisms like this are stupid.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#113

Post by shevy-java »

mindslight wrote: post #94
worik wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The difference now is the number of people feeling effected It always been thus for people at the margins

So we agree, including that there is a difference.

But did you not disagree before? The "I am getting tired" statement kind of implies that.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#114

Post by skrtskrt »

JohnMakin wrote: post #29
rvz wrote: post #14

[flagged]

These kind of condescending comments are a bit much, especially when not everyone has the luxury or know-how to deFAANG their lives. For instance, whether or not (I) personally want to avoid it, I use some of this for actual work, and there is no alternative. Comments like this seem to imply then I have no right to complain about it, which is frankly ridiculous - there is a world where FAANGs can exist without being…

We're on the forum where people are most capable of doing this for themselves.

And if your company uses GMail that is less than ideal for de-Googling, but it does not meaningfully impact the benefits of de-Googling your personal life.

Refusing to run all your search history, personal transactions, and correspondences through one of the fascist state's pet companies is still beneficial.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#115

Post by themaninthedark »

mindslight wrote: post #82
LtWorf wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In "good" times this made investigations run smoothly. These times never existed.

I'm getting tired of these comments that normalize being in the middle of the slippery slope as if it is merely the same as being at the top of the slippery slope was. They may not have been "good" times, but they were certainly better times when government agencies at least aimed to carry out their roles in good faith rather than minmaxing the rules to cause the most damage to enemies of the Party. Applying judgemen…

No. Full stop.

Laws are supposed to be crafted to be as applied by anyone, anywhere and at any time. This is why lawyers and politicians are supposed to have foresight and be prudent.

You look at prior events and see them as justified due to the people involved and situations.

If the US government can, for example investigate Richard Spencer or some other extremist figure based on a web post, then they can do the same for someone else on the other end of the spectrum.

But even more terrifying is that they can do the same for someone not in the extremes.

When my friends on the left held power and used it to quash the speech of my friends on the right, I spoke up.

When my friends on the right are doing the same, I also speak up.

The sad irony is that those not in power protest only when it is not their side.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#116

Post by mindslight »

shevy-java wrote: post #113
mindslight wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we agree, including that there is a difference.

But did you not disagree before? The "I am getting tired" statement kind of implies that.

Different commenter and different statement.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#117

Post by nomel »

panarky wrote: post #54
Anonbrit wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't use products from large US tech companies? Apple has a slightly better track record than Google of fighting this stuff, but ultimately if you're using a product from a US tech company then it's likely ICE can get their grubby little mitts on everything that company knows about you

Is there any evidence that Apple fights administrative subpoenas issued by US federal agencies? Or is Google just more transparent than Apple about the government orders it complies with? For example, after the Department of Justice demanded app stores remove apps that people use to track ICE deployments, Apple was the first to comply, followed later by Google.

It's a constitutional right to record them doing their duties, in public. That's clear.

Here's a question: Is making a reporting system around that, for the purpose of/approaches/is realtime tracking, also protected? Maybe related to "non-permanence"?

(references welcome)

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#118

Post by garyfirestorm »

cvhc wrote: post #105

Google discloses stats about government requests via FISA / National Security Letters: https://transparencyreport.google.com/user-data/us-national-... I was in one of these published NSLs issued by FBI a few years ago. I was notified by Google after the nondisclosure period.

care to explain how you got added to it? what happened then? did you fight it?

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#119

Post by teachrdan »

sam345 wrote: post #97
legitster wrote: post #32

So I don't think I actually have a problem with businesses handing over their customer data if there is a valid warrant or subpoena. That's the system working as intended. The main crux of the problem here is that the DHS has been granted a wide berth by congress to issue administrative subpoenas - i.e. not reviewed by a real judge and not directed at criminals. In "good" times this made investigations run smoothly.…

I'm not an expert in fourth amendment but I do know that assuming a subpoena without judicial oversight violates the fourth amendment is not correct. All the fourth amendment guarantees is unreasonable search and seizure. In some circumstances a judicial subpoena may be necessary and others not. An administrative subpoena implies that there has been a legal procedure and the administrative agencies are not exactly ru…

> An administrative subpoena implies that there has been a legal procedure and the administrative agencies are not exactly run like the wild west

Hard disagree. The fact that a government agency "reviewed" its own subpoena before enforcing it does not follow the spirit of the Fourth Amendment, which is to prevent government overreach in taking your belongings and information.

In fact, to take your definition of what's not unreasonable to its logical conclusion, by definition any process an agency came up with would be acceptable, as long as they followed it.

I think a better definition of a reasonable search and seizure would be one where a subpoena goes before a judge, the target of the subpoena is notified and has the opportunity to fight it, and where there are significant consequences for government agents who lie or otherwise abuse the process of getting a subpoena.

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