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Code is cheap. Show me the talk

nadh.in

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Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#111

Post by dasil003 »

figassis wrote: post #92
Waterluvian wrote: post #34

I think if your job is to assemble a segment of a car based on a spec using provided tools and pre-trained processes, it makes sense if you worry that giant robot arms might be installed to replace you. But if your job is to assemble a car in order to explore what modifications to make to the design, experiment with a single prototype, and determine how to program those robot arms, you’re probably not thinking about…

I don’t think this is the issue “yet”. It’s that no matter what class you are, your CEO does not care. Mediocre AI work is enough to give them immense returns and an exit. He’s not looking out for the unfortunate bag holders. The world has always had tolerance for highly distributed crap. See Windows.

This seems like a purely cynical lacking any substantive analysis.

Despite whatever nasty business practices and shitty UX Windows has foisted on the world, there is no denying the tremendous value that it has brought, including impressive backwards compatibility that rivals some of the best platforms in computing history.

AI shovelware pump-n-dump is an entirely different short term game that will never get anywhere near Microsoft levels of success. It's more like the fly-by-nights in the dotcom bubble that crashed and burned without having achieved anything except a large investment.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#112

Post by moffkalast »

javier_e06 wrote: post #70
enlyth wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A software engineer with an LLM is still infinitely more powerful than a commoner with an LLM. The engineer can debug, guide, change approaches, and give very specific instructions if they know what needs to be done. The commoner can only hammer the prompt repeatedly with "this doesn't work can you fix it". So yes, our jobs are changing rapidly, but this doesn't strike me as being obsolete any time soon.

I listened to an segment on the radio where a College Teacher told their class that it was okay to use AI assist you during test provided: 1. Declare in advance that AI is being used. 2. Provided verbatim the questions and answer session. 3. Explain why the answer given by the AI is good answer. Part of the grade will include grading 1, 2, 3 Fair enough.

That's roughly what we did as well. Use anything you want, but in the end you have to be able to explain the process and the projects are harder than before.

If we can do more now in a shorter time then let's teach people to get proficient at it, not arbitrarily limit them in ways they won't be when doing their job later.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#113

Post by danaris »

stevofolife wrote: post #94
jdjeeee wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No this is not the way we want learning to be - just like how students are banned from using calculators until they have mastered the foundational thinking.

Calculator don't tell you step by step. AI can.

Yeah; it gets steps 1-3 right, 4-6 obviously wrong, and then 7-9 subtly wrong such that a student, who needs it step by step while learning, can't tell.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#114

Post by figassis »

dasil003 wrote: post #111
figassis wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this is the issue “yet”. It’s that no matter what class you are, your CEO does not care. Mediocre AI work is enough to give them immense returns and an exit. He’s not looking out for the unfortunate bag holders. The world has always had tolerance for highly distributed crap. See Windows.

This seems like a purely cynical lacking any substantive analysis. Despite whatever nasty business practices and shitty UX Windows has foisted on the world, there is no denying the tremendous value that it has brought, including impressive backwards compatibility that rivals some of the best platforms in computing history. AI shovelware pump-n-dump is an entirely different short term game that will never get anywhere…

You misunderstand me. While I left Windows over a decade ago, I recognize it was a great OS in some aspects. I was referring to the recent AI fueled Windows developments and Ad riddled experiences. Someone decided that is fine, and you won't see orgs or regular users drop it...tolerance.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#115

Post by whatever1 »

If you have a solid test environment that would allow for an agent to check if it is right or wrong, I encourage you to do the experiment.

Put the agent on the wheel and observe it as it tries ruthlessly to pass the test. These days, likely it will manage to pass the tests after 3-5 loops, which I find fascinating.

Close the loop, and try an LLM. You will be surprised.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#116

Post by leecommamichael »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #78
leecommamichael wrote: post #14

> Ignoring outright bad code, in a world where functional code is so abundant that “good” and “bad” are indistinguishable, ultimately, what makes functional AI code slop or non-slop? I'm sorry, but this is an indicator for me that the author hasn't had a critical eye for quality in some time. There is massive overlap between "bad" and "functional." More than ever. The barrier-to-entry to programming got irresponsibly…

One issue is that tooling and internals have been optimized for individual people's tastes currently. Heterogeneous environments make the models spikier. As we shift to building more homogenized systems optimized around agent accessibility, I think we'll see significant improvements Elegantly, agents finally give us an objective measure of what "good" code is. It's code that maximizes the likelihood that future agent…

> Elegantly, agents finally give us an objective measure of what "good" code is. It's code that maximizes the likelihood that future agents will be able to successfully solve problems in this codebase. If code is "bad" it makes future problems harder.

An analogous argument was made in the 90's to advocate for the rising desire for IDEs and OOP languages. "Bad" code came to be seen as 1000+ lines in one file because you could simply conjure up the documentation out-of-context, and so separation of concerns slipped all the way from "one function one purpose" to something not far from "one function one file."

I don't say this as pure refusal, but to beg the question of what we lose when we make these values-changes. At this time, we do not know. We are meekly accepting a new mental prosthesis with insufficient foresight of the consequences.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#117

Post by skydhash »

altmanaltman wrote: post #90
Waterluvian wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder about how true this was historically. I imagine race car driving had periods of rapid, exciting innovation. But I can see how a lot of it has probably reached levels of optimization where the rules, safety, and technology change well within the realm of diminishing returns. I'm sure there's still a ridiculous about of R&D though? (I don't really know race car driving)

Sure there is crazy levels of R&D but that mostly happens off season or if there is a change in regulations which happen every 4-5 years usually. Interestingly, this year the entire grid starts with new regs and we don't really know the pecking order yet. But my whole point was that race to race, it really isn't that much different for the teams as the comment implied and I am still kind of lost how it fits to SWE un…

Do you really think that rainy Canada is the same as Jedddah, or Singapore? And what is the purpose of the free practice sessions?

You’ve got the big bet to design the car between the season (which is kinda the big architectural decisions you make at the beginning of the project). Then you got the refinement over the season, which are like bug fixings and performance tweaks. There’s the parts upgrade, which are like small features added on top of the initial software.

For the next season, you either improve on the design or start from scratch depending on what you’ve learned. In the first case, It is the new version of the software. In the second, that’s the big refactor.

I remember that the reserve drivers may do a lot of simulations to provide data to the engineers.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#118

Post by bheadmaster »

jdjeeee wrote: post #84
bheadmaster wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually a great way to foster the learning spirit in the age of AI. Even if the student uses AI to arrive at an answer, they will still need to, at the very least, ask the AI to give it an explanation that will teach them how it arrived to the solution.

No this is not the way we want learning to be - just like how students are banned from using calculators until they have mastered the foundational thinking.

That's a fair point, but AI can do much more than just provide you with an answer like a calculator.

AI can explain the underlying process of manual computation and help you learn it. You can ask it questions when you're confused, and it will keep explaining no matter how off the topic you go.

We don't consider tutoring bad for learning - quite the contrary, we tutor slower students to help them catch up, and advanced students to help them fulfill their potential.

If we use AI as if it was an automated, tireless tutor, it may change learning for the better. Not like it was anywhere near great as it was.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#119

Post by leecommamichael »

atomicnature wrote: post #26
leecommamichael wrote: post #14

> Ignoring outright bad code, in a world where functional code is so abundant that “good” and “bad” are indistinguishable, ultimately, what makes functional AI code slop or non-slop? I'm sorry, but this is an indicator for me that the author hasn't had a critical eye for quality in some time. There is massive overlap between "bad" and "functional." More than ever. The barrier-to-entry to programming got irresponsibly…

This is the "artisanal clothing argument". I'd think there'll be a dip in code quality (compared to human) initially due to "AI machinery" due to its immaturity. But over-time on a mass-scale - we are going to see an improvement in the quality of software artifacts. It is easier to 'discipline' the top 5 AI agents in the planet - rather than try to get a million distributed devs ("artisans") to produce high quality r…

Except I am not talking about clothing. You are guessing when you say "I'd think" based on your comparison to manufacturing clothing. Why guess and compare when you have more context than that? You're in this industry, right? The commodity of clothing is not like the commodity of software at all. Almost nothing is, as it doesn't really have a physical form. That impacts the economics significantly.

To highlight the gaps in your analogy; machinery still fails to match artisan clothing-makers. Despite being relatively fit, I've got wide hips. I cannot buy denim jeans that both; fit my legs, _and_ my waist. I either roll the legs up or have them hemmed. I am not all that odd, either. One size cannot fit all.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#120

Post by passivegains »

polytely wrote: post #86
optymizer wrote: post #73

> because one is hooked on and dependent on the genie, the natural circumstances that otherwise would allow for foundational and fundamental skills and understanding to develop, never arise, to the point of cognitive decline. After using AI to code, I came to the same conclusion myself. Interns and juniors are fully cooked: - Companies will replace them with AI, telling seniors to use AI instead of juniors - As a jun…

as someone who is sort of a medior programmer it is very hard to balance, trying to keep up with the advancements in AI while not shooting myself in the foot by robbing myself of learning experiences

if it helps, that kind of thoughtfulness is how to learn the things that matter most. you're already on the right track.
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