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Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

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Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#111
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's lost many hours troubleshooting systemd failures, I would like an answer to this question, too.

You won't believe how many hours we have lost troubleshooting SysV init and Upstart issues. systemd is so much better in every way, reliable parallel init with dependencies, proper handling of double forking, much easier to secure services ( systemd-analyze security ), proper timer handling (yay, no more cron), proper temporary file/directory handling, centralized logs, etc. It improves on about every level compared…

Here are a few examples of problems systemd has caused me:

System shutdown/reboot is now unreliable. Sometimes it will be just as quick as it was before systemd arrived, but other times, systemd will decide that something isn't to its liking, and block shutdown for somewhere between 30 seconds and 10 minutes, waiting for something that will never happen. The thing in question might be different from one session to the next, and from one systemd version to the next; I can spend hours or days tracking down the process/mount/service in question and finding a workaround, only to have systemd hang on something else the next day. It offers no manual skip option, so unless I happen to be working on a host with systemd's timeouts reconfigured to reduce this problem, I'm stuck with either forcing a power-off or having my time wasted.

Something about systemd's meddling with cgroups broke the lxc control commands a few years back. To work around the problem, I have to replace every such command I use with something like `systemd-run --quiet --user --scope --property=Delegate=yes `. That's a PITA that I'm unlikely to ever remember (or want to type) so I effectively cannot manage containers interactively without helper scripts any more. It's also a new systemd dependency, so those helper scripts now also need checks for cgroup version and systemd presence, and a different code path depending on the result. Making matters worse, that systemd-run command occasionally fails even when I do everything "right". What was once simple and easy is now complex and unreliable.

At some point, Lennart unilaterally decided that all machines accessed over a network must have a domain name. Subsequently, every machine running a distro that had migrated to systemd-resolved was suddenly unable to resolve its hostname-only peers on the LAN, despite the DNS server handling them just fine. Finding the problem, figuring out the cause, and reconfiguring around it wasn't the end of the world, but it did waste more of my time. Repeating that experience once or twice more when systemd behavior changed again and again eventually drove me to a policy of ripping out systemd-resolved entirely on any new installation. (Which, of course, takes more time.) I think this behavior may have been rolled back by now, but sadly, I'll never get my time back.

There are more examples, but I'm tired of re-living them and don't really want to write a book. I hope these few are enough to convey my point:

Systemd has been a net negative in my experience. It has made my life markedly worse, without bringing anything I needed. Based on conversations, comments, and bug reports I've seen over the years, I get the impression that many others have had a similar experience, but don't bother speaking up about it any more, because they're tired of being dismissed, ignored, or shouted down, just as I am.

I would welcome a reliable, minimal, non-invasive, dependency-based init. Systemd is not it.

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a reason why Devuan (a non systemd Debian) exists. Don’t want to get into a massive argument, but there are legitimate reasons for some to go in a different direction.

And Void Linux. And Gentoo. And Alpine Linux. And Slackware. And others.

Systemd has recently added experimental support for musl libc, which should eventually allow Alpine to upgrade though

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#113
post #65

Exciting! It sounds like you want to achieve system transparency, but I don't see any clear mention of reproducible builds or transparency logs anywhere. I have followed systemd's efforts into Secure Boot and TPM use with great interest. It has become increasingly clear that you are heading in a very similar direction to these projects: - Hal Finney's transparent server - Keylime - System Transparency - Project Oak -…

I'm super far from an expert on this, but it NEEDS reproducible builds, right? You need to start from a known good, trusted state - otherwise you cannot trust any new system states. You also need it for updates.

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#115

"We are building cryptographically verifiable integrity into Linux systems. Every system starts in a verified state and stays trusted over time." What does this mean? Why would anyone want this? Can you explain this to me like I'm five years old?

https://youtu.be/EzSkU3Oecuw?si=1fNV6XkyTv7SfpJs

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#116

Remote attestation is another technology that is not inherently restrictive of software freedom. But here are some examples of technologies that have already restricted freedom due to oligopoly combined with network effects: * smartphone device integrity checks (SafetyNet / Play Integrity / Apple DeviceCheck) * HDMI/HDCP * streaming DRM (Widevine / FairPlay) * Secure Boot (vendor-keyed deployments) * printers w/ sign…

> * Secure Boot (vendor-keyed deployments)

I wish this myth would die at this point.

Secure Boot allows you to enroll your own keys. This is part of the spec, and there are no shipped firmwares that prevents you from going through this process.

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#118
post #86
post #83

1. Are reproducible builds and transparency logging part of your concept? 2. Are you looking for pilot customers?

Damn, you are thirsty! Are these some problems you've personally been dealing with?

I just want more trustworthy systems. This particular concept of combining reproducible builds, remote attestation and transparency logs is something I came up with in 2018. My colleagues and I started working on it, took a detour into hardware (tillitis.se) and kind of got stuck on the transparency part (sigsum.org, transparency.dev, witness-network.org).

Then we discovered snapshot.debian.org wasn't feeling well, so that was another (important) detour.

Part of me wish we had focused more on getting System Transparency in its entirety in production at Mullvad. On the other hand I certainly don't regret us creating Tillitis TKey, Sigsum, taking care of Debian Snapshot service, and several other things.

Now, six years later, systemd and other projects have gotten a long way to building several of the things we need for ST. It doesn't make sense to do double work, so I want to seize the moment and make sure we coordinate.

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#119
post #46

The typical HN rage-posting about DRM aside, there's no reason that remote attestation can't be used in the opposite direction: to assert that a server is running only the exact code stack it claims to be, avoiding backdoors. This can even be used with fully open-source software, creating an opportunity for OSS cloud-hosted services which can guarantee that the OSS and the build running on the server match. This is a…

intel have had a couple of goes at this

and each time the doors have been blasted wide off by huge security vulnerabilities

the attack surface is simply too large when people can execute their own code nearby

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#120
post #40

The immediate concern seeing this is will the maintainer of systemd use their position to push this on everyone through it like every other extended feature of systemd? Whatever it is, I hope it doesn't go the usual path of a minimal support, optional support and then being virtually mandatory by means of tight coupling with other subsystems.

systemd is the most well supported init systemd there.
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