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430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

nytimes.com

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Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#111

Post by rhelz »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #86
jama211 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an interesting interpretation, but it’s sounds all very unsubstantiated. Speculation it seems to me.

> sounds all very unsubstantiated. Speculation it seems to me What part of the study strikes you as unsubstantiated?

Every part is unsubstantiated. For starters, for the vast majority of H. Sapiens existence on earth--from 300,000 years ago to about 45,000 years ago, we shared the world with 4 or 5 other hominids that we know about. (Neanderthal, Denisoven, H. Luzonensis, H. Floresiensis, and still perhaps a few H. Erectus, and no doubt even more we haven't found yet.)

That's 250,000 years of coexistence. We know that we sheboinked with at least two other species, probably more, because we still carry their genes to this day. So much so that it couldn't have been just a sheboink or two; we sheboinked over extended periods of time, i.e. we formed families with Neanderthals and Denisovens.

We have no evidence of warfare between the species. I.E. We have found no Neanderthal skull with an arrowhead in it, for example. Besides the fact that we are the only ones left, I don't see any substantiation at all.

It is a mystery why they are not still here. But the last 50,000 years, since the end of the last Ice Age, has been very hard on human species, for some reason. We are the only humans left, what every got them might get us too if we let it.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#112

Post by uriegas »

notorandit wrote: post #96

I wonder how would we react with tools dating back to, say, 5MY ago ... That would shake our knowledge from the foundations.

I don't think so, have you read 'The Bonobo and the atheist'? Humans are not the only ones using tools and in reality there isn't much difference between humans and animals. The conclusion I get from the book is that the only difference is religion. Although, I have a feeling that humans do have a more developed intellect (problem solving) but this was not explored in the book.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#113

Post by roysting »

drakythe wrote: post #5

430,000 years? Am I reading this headline correctly? (since the site seems to have fallen victim to the HN-hug-of-death). That seems wildly further back than I understood humans to have tools, or even homo sapiens to have existed. ETA: Today I learned I had a much much larger gap in knowledge than I thought I did. Thanks to everyone for the information and links!

[dead]

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#114

Post by melenaboija »

Ok, since I moved to the US from Europe a few years ago my perception of wood has changed a lot, especially for construction. Seeing this reinforces my view.

Wood lasts for fucking ever under the proper conditions. Old construction in Europe often only had the beams made of wood, and I always thought that was orders of magnitude more durable than wooden houses, like thousands of years vs decades. I don’t think that’s true anymore.

And this might be one of the few environmentally friendly decisions that Americans got better than Europeans, I guess. Wood is still prevalent in construction here, and as far as I know concrete and cement production are quite bad.

BTW, I’m a total ignorant about all this so just intuition and probably wrong

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#115

Post by pinnochio »

ncr100 wrote: post #104
unfitted2545 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kinda ridiculous to think we're not animals anymore, our nature is to use intellect for survival (and though we know we can reduce suffering further we choose not to).

It is a mind bender, yes. Your argument, written here and As far as I understand it at the moment, goes along with the other argument that everything is a simulation, or that everything that we do is preordained based upon physics. All mindbenders. I want to believe that I have the ability to make an educated decision when faced e.g. with impulses to suppress or oppress others, I do know that I can consider ramificat…

> Your argument, written here and As far as I understand it at the moment, goes along with the other argument that everything is a simulation,

What?

This isn't a mindbender. You're just drawing lines.

Edit: I slightly misread your comment as advocating that we're not animals. However, whether one describes us as not animals or able to be "unanimal like" is still a matter of drawing lines.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#116

Post by jrflowers »

3RTB297 wrote: post #48
lmf4lol wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you think would this info be surpressed?

I'm not the person you asked this of, but I've worked in museums and research settings and can lob a response your way. Ultimately, it's that scientists are humans, too. Despite some of them really making their research data-forward, things like tenure, career, funding, and even who would publish your work now and in the future all create normal human environments that reward small, incremental changes to a body of k…

>So until overwhelming evidence surfaces, which can take decades or longer, claims like this shouldn't be dismissed out of hand until proven solidly in error. A theory is a theory, so let it be a theory.

I like how the word “overwhelming” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#117

Post by dpc050505 »

yieldcrv wrote: post #91
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tools predate homo sapiens (which emerged about 300 kYA) I’m going to use a charged word because Jane Goodall used it. Goodall asserted that humans and chimpanzees (and wolves) are unique among animals in that we have a genocidal tendency [1]. When a group attacks us (or has “land and resources” we want) we don’t just chase them off. We exterminate them. We expend great resources to track them down to ensure they c…

Given enough time of human survival, the only species left on this planet will be ones that are aesthetically pleasing to us Everything selectively bred due to environmental or artificial pressures to have big eyes, big heads, high vocal sounds, attributes of human babies It is very strange and an aberration amongst species, one being tolerating other beings because of their entertainment value and the joy they give…

Animals being tasty is a trait we heavily select for. I don't think chickens have any of the traits you describe but they're certainly not at risk of extinction.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#118

Post by pinnochio »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #76
MarcelOlsz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst part of reading this thread is I know I won't be able to google image anything interesting related to "non-human hominids" :( Your comment was oddly depressing lol. Real "are we the baddies?" moment this morning.

> won't be able to google image anything interesting related to "non-human hominids" We were a large family [1]. > Real "are we the baddies?" moment We were animals. We acted in accordance with our natures. Wolves and chimpanzees aren’t baddies any more than bees or hyenas. Nature is brutal. Today, however, we are more than our natures. We have the capacity to criticize it when it arises in ways we disapprove of. In…

> Today, however, we are more than our natures.

This really depends on how you define nature. Attempts to delineate what is and is not nature tend to be motivated.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#119

Post by BirAdam »

zahlman wrote: post #97
MengerSponge wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be old enough to have been taught that Humans are tool-using apes. That's tragically incomplete: lots of apes use tools. Birds use tools. And now, cows use tools! Cow tools: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj0n127y74go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_tools

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronika_(cow) might be a better Wikipedia link. Honestly I would have expected a pig or horse to be discovered to use tools, rather than a cow. Cattle are generally... not thought of as particularly intelligent.

Well, most cattle aren't given much to stimulate them, and they're bred for meat production and complacency. People aren't exactly looking to make the life of cattle fun or enjoyable.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#120

Post by dpc050505 »

hearsathought wrote: post #70
drakythe wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was homeschooled in a particular conservative area. Much of what I have been taught was... woefully inadequate, we'll say. Lots of my learning has come in university and afterwards, so what I've picked up is pretty obviously incomplete and leaves me with many unknown unknowns in this area. Today has begun filling in many of those gaps so they get to be known unknowns now!

> Lots of my learning has come in university and afterwards That's true for pretty much everybody. Homeschooled or not. You think everyone shocked by this news was all homeschooled?

I'm relearning a lot of stuff I was told visiting natural history museums as a kid reading this thread and the linked articles. I doubt I'm the only person in this forum who had a couple of educated parents who wanted their kids to learn more than what is taught in basic public k-12 curriculum.
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