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Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#111

Post by UqWBcuFx6NV4r »

sensecall wrote: post #30
londons_explore wrote: post #7

For context for international readers, the UK has a lot of speed cameras and other automated ways to give out fines. These get sent by snailmail to the 'owner'[simplification] of the vehicle using a government database. The owner must then, within a deadline, say who was driving the vehicle at that date and time. If the owner fails to say who was driving, they have committed a criminal offence, and will be fined. It…

It's a ludicrous system – I've experienced it first hand. If for some reason the letter isn't delivered (or indeed sent), the original offence is scrapped and a new offence issued for Failure to provide information. Frustratingly, there is no obligation on the Police to provide proof of posting, and per the law, it is deemed received once sent. Try proving you didn't receive something...

It, in reality, works just fine. Stop trying to harbour sympathy from Americans with their prebiotics traffic safety systems.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#112

Post by UqWBcuFx6NV4r »

paganel wrote: post #56
sensecall wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a ludicrous system – I've experienced it first hand. If for some reason the letter isn't delivered (or indeed sent), the original offence is scrapped and a new offence issued for Failure to provide information. Frustratingly, there is no obligation on the Police to provide proof of posting, and per the law, it is deemed received once sent. Try proving you didn't receive something...

It's ludicrous that the British put up with those laws, at some point they have to assume responsibility.

Not everybody wants to be American, thankfully.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#113

Post by UqWBcuFx6NV4r »

mercanlIl wrote: post #24
philwelch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a horrible system. Britain used to be famous for the professionalism of their police and now they can’t be bothered to make a traffic stop and give people speeding tickets face to face.

I’m a bit biased here, because a close friend’s mother was killed by someone speeding through a red light. I think automated enforcement of minor driving infractions is a good thing. More efficient use of government resources. Incentivizes drivers to follow the rules of the road.

I’ve never felt more unsafe on the roads than when I’ve been in the US.

You connect the dots.

These systems work. They change behaviour and they save lives.

American exceptionalism is tiring to no end.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#114

Post by UqWBcuFx6NV4r »

stronglikedan wrote: post #29
mercanlIl wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a bit biased here, because a close friend’s mother was killed by someone speeding through a red light. I think automated enforcement of minor driving infractions is a good thing. More efficient use of government resources. Incentivizes drivers to follow the rules of the road.

Except that this: > automated enforcement of minor driving infractions Would not have prevented this: > someone speeding through a red light It's the think-of-the-children fallacy

Thankfully there is more than one country on earth and we actually have countless examples of this stuff working. Not everything that you’re not personally subject to has to be left to debating hypotheticals.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#115

Post by sensecall »

RansomStark wrote: post #76
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that for Royal Mail at least, proof of posting is considered sufficient to work as proof of receipt.

that's difficult when most post is dropped in a metal box on a street. But I'd argue that not the issue people have with the way these laws work in practice. For those that don't use the UK postal service, Royal Mail has a recorded delivery option that can show that, at least something, mostly likely what was sent, was delivered to the address. The issue here is that the UK government has given itself a pass that, 't…

You articulated my frustrations much better than I did.

Given more time, money and determination, I’d love have properly challenged the court system/law around this.

Alas, I didn’t and just got slammed with points and a fine. I’m still bitter about it all these years later.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#116

Post by fc417fc802 »

josephcsible wrote: post #110
Mawr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not. The Xth percentile speed is not an appropriate measure for a few reasons: 1. Humans are not generally capable of sufficiently accurate long-term low-incidence risk assessment. Meaning, you irrationally value potentially getting to work 10 seconds faster over a 50% increased chance you run over a child crossing the street. 2. Humans are subject to too many irrational psychological factors; stuff like: • Fal…

> Bonus points for rationalizing this behavior "because it's safer to go at the speed of traffic!". But that's true (look up the Solomon curve), and it's exactly why the 85th percentile would be better. > Delusional rationalizations like "if the limit is 50 then going 10 over must be fine too, due to !". Bonus points for applying the "5/10/15/20 over" rule for every possible speed limit — basic maths and physics say…

I'll agree with you regarding major arterials but disagree when it comes to suburban neighborhoods. What feels safe from the perspective of someone operating a vehicle can be quite different than what's actually safe when there are pedestrians and cars unexpectedly popping out of driveways.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#117

Post by wakawaka28 »

yakz wrote: post #80
monooso wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer you seek is right there in the article (emphasis mine): > Tesla offers its vehicles on long-term leases, and in such a scenario the leasing company is typically the registered keeper of the car. > Drivers of rented or company cars caught speeding have to be named before they can face prosecution and companies which fail to return paperwork to police can be prosecuted instead. A company leases the car, and…

The answer is not in the article. The question is: why isn't there a registration process for the person that leased the car? How are rented or company cars even relevant, since that's a different company between Tesla and the driver that would have the information about the driver? It seems like a weird quirk that there's not a registration process closer that leads somewhere closer to the actual driver. Is it a pri…

Because it's the UK and half their shit doesn't make sense fundamentally. But to try to come up with a real answer, I bet some rich people use this feature of their registration system to get a bit of privacy. They can just get a lease vehicle and not even the cops know who has it. Seems plausible.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#118

Post by wakawaka28 »

oakesm9 wrote: post #6
yakz wrote: post #4

Seems like some kind of weird quirk that the government doesn't already have this information readily available. Why isn't there a registration process for the person that leased the car?

If you lease a car the owner of the vehicle isn't the driver, but the lease company itself. Tesla was contacted to provide the drivers name (as is their legal obligation) and when they didn't they were fined. Exactly the same is true if you own the car outright. You as the owner of the vehicle will be contacted and asked to provide the details of the person who was driving at the time.

They need to change their system to add a layer of indirection for leases, or a second field to record the lessee.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#119

Post by josephcsible »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #116
josephcsible wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bonus points for rationalizing this behavior "because it's safer to go at the speed of traffic!". But that's true (look up the Solomon curve), and it's exactly why the 85th percentile would be better. > Delusional rationalizations like "if the limit is 50 then going 10 over must be fine too, due to !". Bonus points for applying the "5/10/15/20 over" rule for every possible speed limit — basic maths and physics say…

I'll agree with you regarding major arterials but disagree when it comes to suburban neighborhoods. What feels safe from the perspective of someone operating a vehicle can be quite different than what's actually safe when there are pedestrians and cars unexpectedly popping out of driveways.

> What feels safe from the perspective of someone operating a vehicle can be quite different than what's actually safe when there are pedestrians and cars unexpectedly popping out of driveways.

That's all the more reason to raise speed limits on the major roads. Speed limits being more reasonable there makes it more likely that drivers would abide by them even on those smaller residential streets.

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