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Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

economist.com

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Re: Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

#111

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Unknown second order effects Nearest real world success is continuous low volume maritime dispersal which has completely different dispersal dynamics than high-altitude bursts, and the continuous low volume maritime dispersal is non-viable No way to undo it once done If humans can’t perpetually release aerosols — and I mean perpetually , for the next millions of years — then the global climate “snaps back” violently…

I'm no expert in this subject and I don't have any strong opinions on it. The point of this comment isn't to debate one side or the other. That said, your comment stands out to me to be self-contradictory and unscientific (by way of being alarmist and not backing up an extraordinary claim ). > Unknown second order effects This sounds right. > Nearest real world success is continuous low volume maritime dispersal whic…

> Wait... So, to undo it all we have to do is stop doing it? Doesn't this contradict the statement right before it?

It's not quite that simple.

The intuition that you're subtly relying on is the idea that the response or effect of one of these geoengineering treatments is linear. But unfortunately, that's not something you can assume about a dynamical system. In reality, the climate system can undergo certain types of hysteresis where "undoing" the forcing doesn't revert the initial perturbation, because you're suddenly on a different response curve. Probably the most famous example of this in climate dynamics is the way that the ice-albedo effect sets up a hysteresis in the trajectory towards a "snowball Earth" scenario. Apologies for the lack of links/references; Wiki has decent write-ups on this, and it's typically covered in the first chapter of a climate dynamics textbook.

The potential response to suddenly stopping a climate change mitigation strategy has a very well-popularized name: a "termination shock." In fact, Neal Stephenson used exactly this concept in his titular novel on the topic in 2021.

As a climate scientist, my mental model to better understand the risk of termination shocks and unintended consequences boils down to how fast the response of the climate system is. Marine brightening is "less risky" because the meteorological response to these interventions is extremely fast; a cloud-precipitation system will respond on the order of minutes to hours, and unless the intervention continues unabated, it will clean the air quickly, limiting the repsonse. Stratospheric aerosol injection is more complicated, but we have a very good analogue - very large scale volcanic eruptions like Mt Pinatubo. The response to these sorts of events is measured more on the timescale of 2-5 years, although knock-on effects (such as a shift towards more diffuse solar radiation reaching the surface, which has significant effects on terrestrial and oceanic biogeochemistry) could very much persist longer than that - and don't "snap back" nearly as quickly. A continuous, Pinatubo-like intervention would compound and introduce coupled atmosphere/ocean responses that could decade years or longer to fully play out. And that's _in addition_ to the near immediate (1-2 year) response in global average temperature, which would bounce back to most of the pre-intervention level very quickly.

These things are complex. There's a lot we don't know. But, there's also a lot we _do_ know. I would encourage anyone who does not have significant experience in climate dynamics to remain curious and avoid jumping to conclusions based on simple intuition; they're probably wrong.

Re: Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good lord, read Termination Shock by Neil Stephenson. Stratospheric aerosol injection is effective, but comes with severe risks, and can even be used as a strategic weapon (e.g. inject your sulphur over X and disrupt the monsoon in the Punjab, fucking their agriculture).

Neil Stephenson is predicting way too much of the future. Tenses are hard. Again: Stephenson predicted way too much of the present.

He has a knack for being scarily prescient. I didn't expect we would seriously be discussing geoengineering in the 2020's (I gave it until at least the early 2030's, given the technical complexity of building the actual delivery system for any planet-scale intervention), but here we are.

Re: Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

#113
post #48
post #36

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You mean China and India which are building coal power plants at record pace as we speak.

China is also building renewables and nuclear at record pace and their per capita emission is much lower than USA. If we also take historic emission into account (and we should - the CO2 from decades ago is still in atmosphere!) then China still has a lot of budget to catch up with USA. Honestly, the China argument is getting really tiring.

I have always found the American perspective on this subject annoying precisely because of the crazy emissions and consumption per capita in the US.

It feels like US citizens intentionally or not gatekeep wealth, and do nothing policy-wise about the unsustainable consumption patterns besides going to war for oil.

No serious attempt to increase transit ridership, no serious attempt to electrify the automotive industry, no serious attempt to build a domestic renewable energy production pipeline, no serious attempt to curb suburban sprawl, no economic disincentive on single use items like fast food packaging, no serious effort to move public health education toward healthy low carbon diets (less red meat, less dairy from cows), no corporate-level disincentives to waste (e.g., companies throwing out returned items when it’s cheaper), no serious effort to move to high efficiency construction and HVAC practices.

The list goes on and on. In the American perspective other counties like China are at fault for everything despite being the world’s foremost consumer of resources and one of the biggest ideological sticks in the mud for progress.

Re: Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t figure out carbon taxes today but thankfully we’ll have a knife’s edge to walk on total catastrophe until we figure out sequestration.

i think we should be exploring all. carbon tax would be great, but currently seems politically impossible outside of Europe (and even challenging within)

You’re missing the point: if we can’t find the political will to implement solutions today, why would we find the political will to implement solutions tomorrow?

Re: Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it your impression that scientists should be considered the paramount experts on climate change policy questions? Even though their expertise is on the climate side and not the policy side? What exactly does the science say that makes it definitively a bad policy choice, regardless of the fact that policy requires the consideration of political and economic feasibility?

> You should do some reading on why there are few actual climate scientists pushing this idea

Could you cite one source that would consititute an example of such reading?

Re: Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it your impression that scientists should be considered the paramount experts on climate change policy questions? Even though their expertise is on the climate side and not the policy side? What exactly does the science say that makes it definitively a bad policy choice, regardless of the fact that policy requires the consideration of political and economic feasibility?

> Is it your impression that scientists should be considered the paramount experts on climate change policy questions Yes. We should listen to people who use evidence and reason to suggest the best course of action. We should listen to people who have spent decades of their lives studying this issue for relatively little reward other than trying to make the world better. We should NOT listen to semi-literate goobers…

So your belief is that scientists are the people of evidence, reason, and selfless dedication to goodness, while policy people who are not scientists are incompetent and despicable?

I don't know. Is such a black and white group based worldview plausible? It's possible I guess, but I find it hard to believe?

Re: Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

#117
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert in this subject and I don't have any strong opinions on it. The point of this comment isn't to debate one side or the other. That said, your comment stands out to me to be self-contradictory and unscientific (by way of being alarmist and not backing up an extraordinary claim ). > Unknown second order effects This sounds right. > Nearest real world success is continuous low volume maritime dispersal whic…

Read on maritime SO2, it was stopped because it's second order effects were too negative (mostly acid rain if i recall right) The stuff about aerosols: The "plan" isn't that you dump a one time "treatment" of aerosols and then climate is reset. It's a continuous aerosol injection advitam aeternam to offset the warming - constant upkeep. About comments on destruction of all life: the biosphere is so conplex it's hard…

there is absolutly no possibility of injecting enough of anything into the atmosphere in such a way as the CO² cost of doing so dosn't cause more heating than the "airosol" reflects into space, which in itself is purely conjectural, there bieng, absolutly zero engineering paractice or experience to go from,.... well, not counting an unlimited supply of hubris

Re: Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, we have volcanoes that were doing it in an uncontrolled manner for a long time. I think we have survived.

Well, the problem is that what we would need to geoengineer the climate would be equivalent to a continuous, yearly sequence of large volcanic eruptions. So the analogy starts to breakdown, because the handful of examples we have of these sorts of periods with high volcanic activity were actually pretty bad for civilization at the time: 1. 530's-540's Cluster - contemporaneous historical notes over both the far East…

At least those show that a stratospheric injection doesn't persist for too long. 200 years of heightened volcanic activity was certainly a problem that eventually resolved itself.

Re: Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should do some reading on why there are few actual climate scientists pushing this idea

Could you cite one source that would consititute an example of such reading?

If you don’t know how to find scientific journal articles then you are too far behind for me to help with.

Re: Earth is warming faster. Scientists are closing in on why (2024)

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you cite one source that would consititute an example of such reading?

If you don’t know how to find scientific journal articles then you are too far behind for me to help with.

I do. My question is whether you are willing to share the justification for your claims with the room. By your own account, it is trivial, no? How long does a Google Scholar search take to pull up an article for a person such as yourself who is versed in the topic?

And again, my question is: does the science show that this is objectively bad, regardless of bog standard policy considerations? For example, comparison with the status quo?

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