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Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

lalitm.com

111–120 of 168 posts

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#111

Reminds me of one of my managers who said, “Sometimes, you have to let people fail.” It does take a lot of energy to keep some people afloat. My hope has always been they learn to swim as it were, but sometimes it’s just effort better spent elsewhere. I know one project did not have my involvement and couldn’t have succeeded without my knowledge. They were so bad they would work in questions casually to their actual…

When executives fail, unfortunately, they don't blame each other. They do postmortems, then hire consultants to layoff senior engineers.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#112
Knowing something is wonky and knowing how to fix something wonky effectively without pissing anyone are completely different level of tasks though.

Knowing things is bad only requires knowledge of the product itself. But fixing it requires understanding of the whole infrastructure and members around the project.

An outsider can't do it. And the insider don't necessarily think the project is bad from his perspective. You would have to argue with him to convince him the project is bad. Which really don't bring any value to the outsider themselves. And it can even be harmful.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#113
As a consultant I've been brought in on both good and bad projects. In one example, I figured out pretty soon the project was only kept alive because it was deemed high priority by upper management. I gave the engineering manager and project manager my recommendations for how mitigate a few of the highest risk problems, and maybe salvage something. After not hearing back from anyone for a month I realized that nobody was going to risk making waves for an effort they'd already decided was going to fail. Mostly they were positioning themselves to not be blamed at the post mortem.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#114
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

of course they're wasting their time. a year of work deleted? all you have to show for it is money? you could have money AND something to be proud of. what a waste it was, to do something pointless for a year when you could have done something important. not to say that there aren't experiments worth running. but in my experience (and in the example in the OP's article), the experiment often isn't even worth running.…

It seems different people get different things out of work. My favorite kind of code to write at work is code that I know will never make it to production. No chance of requirement change or incomprehensible support tickets. I mean your way is valid too.

ah, to be clear, I'm not really talking about anyone's individual values here. It may well be that a person is as rewarded, or even moreso, getting to work on some pie-in-the-sky foolish idea as they are one that is productive for society.

My point is that, from the viewpoint of an external observer: we want people doing prosocial work if it's possible, so if there's counterfactuals where they do or don't, we'd rather they do. And the point of taking moral stances on stuff is to press for the attitudes and behaviors that lead to a world that maximize's everyone's safety and happiness and prosperity and whatnot. Therefore it is moral, at some level: a world where the company wastes money on dumb stuff is worse than a world where the company channels that money into value for humanity.

It has nothing to do with the individual's preferences, and I don't begrudge them their preferences either way. My point is that when we're evaluating "letting projects fail" as a policy, the moral angle needs to be part of the conversation, because it does have moral implications. Convincing yourself that it does not is a moral choice: it amounts to saying that you do not feel responsible for those implications in the slightest. That doesn't mean you should turn around and be fully responsible for them, either. As with anything there is a lot to weigh. But completely writing it off seems wrong.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#116
reminds me of a friend who worked in japan (an american). something was wrong in a project and nobody would say anything. Turns out he was the one to say something. Japanese culture won't speak up, but a foreigner can make "mistakes" like speaking uncomfortable truths, which breaks the logjam.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#117
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t imagine holding a job where I had to do work that I expect will fail. Sounds absolutely depressing. What keeps you motivated?

We the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing. "Fulfilling" work is a rarity afforded by a fairly unique time and place in history. For the rest of us, work is a means to an end and ideally a fulfilling life outside work lets you keep plugging away on some rich idiot's hare braine…

Some real poetry from the trenches. Thank you

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#118
post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

I was put on a project a few years back that I thought was heading in the wrong direction. I said something and was ignored. I said something again and it was made clear by the response that the new VP had surrounded himself with yes-men and there was no more room for this kind of input. Ever since I have watched train wreck and train wreck. I’m not going to fight to help people who don’t what to listen to well meaning feedback.

Funny enough, 2 years after I was told to get on board or keep my mouth shut, customers complained about the very thing I said they would complain about. I felt slightly vindicated, and they had to rearchitect the whole thing to try and accomplish it. It’s been 5 years since the project started and they still haven’t fully shipped the feature.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#119
I've seen the opposite as well, and at a high level.

In this case it was an incompetent VP of Engineering who was seriously lacking domain knowledge when a new set of projects outside the norm came into the company. Instead of having a professional attitude, understanding his limitations and convening domain experts to help him and the team move forward, he actively opposed and derailed the project.

What's sad is that we, as external engineering consultants, were yelling at the top of our lungs trying to make management understand the serious liability this had revealed. They were absolutely blind to it until even a toddler could recognize the issue.

This cost the company millions of dollars as well as market reputation.

I think he is an Uber driver now, it's been a few years.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve never worked in big tech, but I have seen the same dynamics play out in much smaller orgs. If you’re constantly nitpicking and expressing concerns, you become “that person” who’s constantly negative about other people’s ideas. After a while people tune out; they already know that you’ll find “problems.” We all know these people. No one really likes working with them. Thus they’re _not effective_ at what they’re…

Yeah, ultimately you're paid to deliver results. Criticism is only of value to the degree that it leads to better results; there is zero value in predicting failure per se. Some people place so much value on being right that they lose sight of the actual goals (and I won't say I'm immune to this, but marriage helped). Nothing with a high upside is low risk, so as en employee you need to inherently frame all risks in…

> Some people place so much value on being right that they lose sight of the actual goals (and I won't say I'm immune to this, but marriage helped).

Thanks I appreciate the hindsight ! This is so true.

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