It’s interestingly related that Amazon is also buying a copper mine: https://www.wsj.com/finance/commodities-futures/amazon-is-bu...
They don't buy a mine they buy the output.
The 500k-ton typo: Why data center copper math doesn't add up
111–120 of 152 posts
Re: The 500k-ton typo: Why data center copper math doesn't add up
#112With regards to the copper market: it keeps surprising me that some people seem to assume copper is a hard requirement for conducting electricity. In reality copper is just convenient . We use it because it's easy to work with, a great conductor, and (until recently) quite affordable. But for most applications there's no reason we couldn't use something else! For example, a 1.5mm2 copper conductor is 0.0134kg/m, whic…
> In the Earth's crust, aluminium is the most abundant metallic element (8.23% by mass[68]) and the third most abundant of all elements (after oxygen and silicon). TIL. I thought it would be relatively expensive due to the difficulty of extracting it. (Iron is much cheaper than I thought, too.)
Aluminium essentially reflects electricity prices and increasingly recycled
Re: The 500k-ton typo: Why data center copper math doesn't add up
#113With regards to the copper market: it keeps surprising me that some people seem to assume copper is a hard requirement for conducting electricity. In reality copper is just convenient . We use it because it's easy to work with, a great conductor, and (until recently) quite affordable. But for most applications there's no reason we couldn't use something else! For example, a 1.5mm2 copper conductor is 0.0134kg/m, whic…
You just have to not mix and match. If you mix them the two need special bonding at every single connector or they can cause arching and fires.
If by “special” you mean ordinary low-cost lugs, then sure.
Check it out:
https://lugsdirect.com/WhyAluminumOverCopperFAQ.htm
And you can browse that site for lugs, and they’re mostly rated for aluminum and copper. Copper-only lugs are actually rather unusual.
Sure, you can’t stick copper and aluminum wires into a wire nut, and finding terminations for smaller-gauge aluminum wire can be hard. But for larger wire, it’s really no problem.
Re: The 500k-ton typo: Why data center copper math doesn't add up
#114[deleted]
Re: The 500k-ton typo: Why data center copper math doesn't add up
#115With regards to the copper market: it keeps surprising me that some people seem to assume copper is a hard requirement for conducting electricity. In reality copper is just convenient . We use it because it's easy to work with, a great conductor, and (until recently) quite affordable. But for most applications there's no reason we couldn't use something else! For example, a 1.5mm2 copper conductor is 0.0134kg/m, whic…
One good reason for moving from copper to aluminum is that copper contaminates recycled steel, but aluminum doesn't. Fortunately these days it's profitable to carefully extract most of the copper wire and such from scrap steel before it's melted down.
Re: The 500k-ton typo: Why data center copper math doesn't add up
#116The funniest part is beyond the typo, the complete lack of physical intuition from the analysts who circulated this. 500,000 tons is roughly the weight of 1.5 Empire State buildings. If your rack busbars weigh more than the structural steel of the facility housing them, you have a geotechnical engineering crisis on your hands. It is wild that we reached a point where financial modeling is so decoupled from physical r…
My first thought was, this is the kind of thing that an LLM writes and nobody checks. But then I realized, any decent LLM would have probably caught that inconsistency
Yeah, the good ones will use tools and give you a nice markdown table. Any claims like this anymore, I trust AI to go through it and give the numbers a reality check. With all the claims made about datacenter resources, power, and water usage, it's darkly funny how bad people are at understanding these things.
The math they do with their assumptions is usually pretty good, and you can tell when they put in the effort, but wow, the models and assumptions are all over the place.
Re: The 500k-ton typo: Why data center copper math doesn't add up
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aluminum conductors are dangerous unless the entire system is designed for it. It is not a case of switching to something cheaper. Look at the electrical fires of the 1950’s and 1960’s as an example, and that was at household levels of current. Aluminum is used, but everything accounts for the insane coefficient of linear expansion and other annoying properties.
This isn't true at all unless you narrowly dwfine "the entire system". Each feeder can be aluminum if you put special goop on any copper connections. Breakers accept it just fine, etc. You should avoid it for smaller wiring, though. There's special 8000 series aluminum if you're trying to be serious with Al feeders
The goop is generally considered to be unnecessary. What you need is a termination that is rated for aluminum wire, and these are very, very common as long as the wire in question is fairly large (8AWG or so and larger).
Re: The 500k-ton typo: Why data center copper math doesn't add up
#118The funniest part is beyond the typo, the complete lack of physical intuition from the analysts who circulated this. 500,000 tons is roughly the weight of 1.5 Empire State buildings. If your rack busbars weigh more than the structural steel of the facility housing them, you have a geotechnical engineering crisis on your hands. It is wild that we reached a point where financial modeling is so decoupled from physical r…
When I asked gemini it got it right away and as a source it provided a link to your comment... what a time to be alive, I hope you got the Empire State buildings calculations right because you're now part of the Truth ™
Re: The 500k-ton typo: Why data center copper math doesn't add up
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
Household electrical usage has decreased, not increased, since that time. Your scaling is backwards. Old aluminum wires in your walls were designed for a time when you lit your home with 100 watt incandescent lamps rather than 12 watt LEDs.
Only true for lighting circuits though, and most household circuits are mixed. The quantity and (edit: aggregate ) power draw of modern appliances is far greater now than 60 years ago, so the overall load on the old wires is much higher.
> power draw of modern appliances
Here's a article that claims that refrigerator energy efficiency has improved dramatically from 1972 to 2012.
https://appliance-standards.org/blog/how-your-refrigerator-h...
I'd bet that modern TVs are more efficient that CRT televisions. Do most people even have desktop computers anymore, or have they mostly been replaced by laptops, tables, and phones? I'd be interested to see the efficiency numbers for electric clothes dryers over time. I wouldn't be surprised if they are also slightly more efficient than older models, even if they are still using resistance heating. Due to smarter electronics that automatically turn the unit off after the clothes are dry (air humidity sensor). I think electric ranges, dish washers, toasters and coffee machines have been ubiquitous since the 1960s (but are probably about the same energy-consumption wise). Air conditioning units are one thing that I'd believe are much more common today than in the 1970s and 1980s. Household sizes are also smaller, so less electricity used for electric water heaters, and the oven, etc.. Electric vehicles are an up and coming user of electricity. What other appliances are likely to be using more now than before?
Re: The 500k-ton typo: Why data center copper math doesn't add up
#120The funniest part is beyond the typo, the complete lack of physical intuition from the analysts who circulated this. 500,000 tons is roughly the weight of 1.5 Empire State buildings. If your rack busbars weigh more than the structural steel of the facility housing them, you have a geotechnical engineering crisis on your hands. It is wild that we reached a point where financial modeling is so decoupled from physical r…
2008 would like a word.