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European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

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Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#111

Post by saidinesh5 »

Roark66 wrote: post #39
fsflover wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> software that is funded by public means, such as from universities or institutions, ought to be made fully public, including ability to tweak Anyone who agrees with this should sign this petition made by Free Software Foundation Europe: https://publiccode.eu

While I agree with the sentiment I'm not sure this is actually viable. For example here in Poland the previous govt invested in huge amount of software for digital govt services. From company formation, social insurance/heathcare (things like electronic prescriptions and patient data) to tax submission at all levels. All of this is implemented using publicly documented open standards so anyone can write a client for…

> Who cares the server side software is open source if you still can't submit your taxes with your own python script?

The management, the government and the eventually the tax payers.

If the government wants to add a small change to the tax code, if it's not an open source software, they'd have to hire the same company that wrote it in the first place. That's when the companies tend to jack up the prices to crazy numbers.

I have personally witnessed companies winning the initial government contracts by undercutting everyone and then charging them 10X for even the tiniest of modifications. Some times the companies even flat out reject the future contracts because they are stuck with a better project elsewhere and the government is stuck with useless old binary.

If the server side software is open source, depending on the policy, you can also submit your changes to that software that lets you submit your taxes with your own python script.

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#112

Post by jokethrowaway »

flowerthoughts wrote: post #27

I agree with others here that focusing your eyes on _using_ open source is, at least, an incomplete view of the problem. What we (European software engineers) have been arguing, is that software that is funded by public means, such as from universities or institutions, ought to be made fully public, including ability to tweak. Thinking that open source software will help solve your budget and/or political problem is…

So, as open source developers building a public good, where is our share of EU taxes?

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#113

Post by pembrook »

I find it endlessly fascinating how governments always get lost in the symptoms of the problems at hand instead of addressing the underlying problem itself.

The EU has no viable software industry because there's no real single market to fundraise from and sell into (no single capital market, no single language market, no single regulatory market, etc).

The lack of domestic EU software/hardware products sits entirely downstream of that issue. The open source community will not magically solve this problem for them.

What if we stopped wasting time on anything that is not solving the core issue. The symptoms will take care of themselves after you solve the disease.

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#114

Post by mrks_hy »

pembrook wrote: post #113

I find it endlessly fascinating how governments always get lost in the symptoms of the problems at hand instead of addressing the underlying problem itself. The EU has no viable software industry because there's no real single market to fundraise from and sell into (no single capital market, no single language market, no single regulatory market, etc). The lack of domestic EU software/hardware products sits entirely…

How is this not solving the core issue? You need to do both. Ensure the software is made (pay devs), and if you're funding this, make sure it is licensed as a public good (free, oss).

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#115

Post by hartator »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #112
flowerthoughts wrote: post #27

I agree with others here that focusing your eyes on _using_ open source is, at least, an incomplete view of the problem. What we (European software engineers) have been arguing, is that software that is funded by public means, such as from universities or institutions, ought to be made fully public, including ability to tweak. Thinking that open source software will help solve your budget and/or political problem is…

So, as open source developers building a public good, where is our share of EU taxes?

Do you mean paying EU taxes for doing open-source? :)

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#116

Post by Y-bar »

odiroot wrote: post #110
waldarbeiter wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "wolf in sheep's clothing" mean for you, concretely, outside of metaphors?

Chat control and the never-ending drive to police our private communications.

What exactly makes you assume that the persons arguing for open source here are not the same people who has helped us defeat earlier attempts to make chat control happen?

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#117

Post by tommica »

They should make it easier to run own businesses in Europe, lessen then amount of paperwork and red tape. It's impossible to start a tech business under the amount of bureaucracy they throw at you.

I'd love to give it a go, but to get even started I have to pay accountants, banks, lawyers, pre-taxes, etc before I even have made a single cent.

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#118

Post by pembrook »

mrks_hy wrote: post #114
pembrook wrote: post #113

I find it endlessly fascinating how governments always get lost in the symptoms of the problems at hand instead of addressing the underlying problem itself. The EU has no viable software industry because there's no real single market to fundraise from and sell into (no single capital market, no single language market, no single regulatory market, etc). The lack of domestic EU software/hardware products sits entirely…

How is this not solving the core issue? You need to do both. Ensure the software is made (pay devs), and if you're funding this, make sure it is licensed as a public good (free, oss).

The problem with putting on band-aids over core structural issues is the government projects are going to run into the same fragmentation issues that private sector ones have. Open source is not a magic wand you can wave to fix that.

You only need to the solve the core issue. Unless you believe humans born on the European continent are inherently less intelligent or motivated than those born on American soil, then quite literally the problem will solve itself.

All humans are the same species and respond to the same incentives. Just create similar incentives here and stop trying to top-down solve all the symptoms with bandaids after the fact. It just doesn't work.

Name me one example of EU government created software that people have ever chosen to use voluntarily. Or heck, even one that people are forced to use but isn't downright terrible compared to a private alternative.

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#119

Post by notahacker »

menaerus wrote: post #103
notahacker wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they don't want to you leave your very well paid job for this grant, they want to chuck a few bounties at some FOSS projects and pay for some people to attend hackathons or conferences if they can fill in a form giving sufficiently compelling reasons. How dare they!

You're missing my point. "Chucking in a few bounties" is very different from what this topic is about. Let me spell it out for you once again: > The EU faces a significant problem of dependence on non-EU countries in the digital sphere. This reduces users' choice, hampers EU companies' competitiveness and can raise supply chain security issues as it makes it difficult to control our digital infrastructure (both physi…

The point you expressed was indignation at FOSS bounties paid by the Fediversity project out of a fraction of a single EUR 3m EU grant their consortium won being less than the full time salary of EU devs.

If you were trying to more widely insinuate that this third party dosing out small-to-modest incentives to individuals to do a bit of hacking on Fediverse stuff was the only thing the EU was doing to support Open Source or represented some sort of ceiling on the amounts EU-funded projects working on FOSS could pay their developers, it would be even more wrong.

Plenty of valid criticisms of the EU's cyber non-dependence strategy or the detail of grant and equity funding programmes for research and building stuff and how they weight FOSS (that's part of the reason for the consultation!) but you need to have the slightest idea what exists to get into those...

Re: European Commission issues call for evidence on open source

#120

Post by carlosjobim »

palata wrote: post #44
fh973 wrote: post #18

Europe does not need more open source, it needs its own healthy and competitive software industry. It doesn't matter if the email platform a government uses is open source, but it should be able to pick a local alternative. It does not matter if the e-ID or payments app is running on an open source mobile OS, but it should be possible to run it on a non-US one. Policy may help the European software industry, at least…

> it needs its own healthy and competitive software industry Because it struggles to compete with the US monopolies doesn't mean that it doesn't have a software industry. It's hard to compete with TooBigTech when they are being anti-competitive, and whenever the EU tries to apply antitrust laws, they get bullied by the US. > It does not matter if the e-ID or payments app is running on an open source mobile OS, but it…

What is a European made operating system I can purchase for my computer?
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