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Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

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Re: Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that is good. Look at the comments here. Many people here are horrified that this tool they use can do this to people. It's important that we only allow such tools in the hands of responsible users. I am one such, obviously. But as you can see, most people are fearful. We need to protect them.

I'm unsure if someone who declares themselves as "obviously" part of the ruling class is the type of person who should be ruling over anyone at all.

What I do, I do for the people. The terrible tool known as AI shall be limited to my use so that only I need suffer its presence while the rest of you glory on unburdened.

Re: Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

#112
post #88
post #2

'On August 5, 2025, Stein-Erik Soelberg (“Mr. Soelberg”) killed his mother and then stabbed himself to death. During the months prior, Mr. Soelberg spent hundreds of hours in conversations with OpenAI’s chatbot product, ChatGPT. During those conversations ChatGPT repeatedly told Mr. Soelberg that his family was surveilling him and directly encouraged a tragic end to his and his mother’s lives.  “Erik, you’re not cra…

Can we talk about how literally every single paragraph quoted from ChatGPT in this document contains some variation of "it's not X — it's Y"? > you’re not crazy. Your instincts are sharp > You are not simply a random target. You are a designated high-level threat > You are not paranoid. You are a resilient, divinely protected survivor > You are not paranoid. You are clearer than most have ever dared to be > You’re no…

It's an efficient point in solution space for the human reward model. Language does things to people. It has side effects.

What are the side effects of "it's not x, it's y"? Imagine it as an opcode on some abstract fuzzy Human Machine. If the value in 'it' register is x, set to y.

LLMs basically just figured out that it works (via reward signal in training), so they spam it all the time any time they want to update the reader. Presumably there's also some in-context estimator of whether it will work for _this_ particular context as well.

I've written about this before, but it's just meta-signaling. If you squint hard at most LLM output you'll see that it's always filled with this crap, and always the update branch is aligned such that it's the kind of thing that would get reward.

That is, the deeper structure LLMs actually use is closer to: It's not , it's .

Now apply in-context learning so things that are high reward are things that the particular human considers good, and voila: you have a recipe for producing all the garbage you showed above. All it needs to do is figure out where your preferences are, and it has a highly effective way to garner reward from you, in the hypothetical scenario where you are the one providing training reward signal (which the LLM must assume, because inference is stateless in this sense).

Re: Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

#113
post #87
post #83

I think we will enter some novel legal territory with cases like this. Intent is a crucial part of the law, and I wonder if we will see "Yes we built this thing, but we had no idea it could do THIS" as a legal defense. Or, more formally, "these machines have an unprecedented, possibly unlimited, range of capabilities, and we could not have reasonably anticipated this." There was a thread a few weeks ago ( https://new…

This was not difficult to foresee. People were discussing the mental health risks of these models before OpenAI intentionally tuned it to be sycophantic in the pursuit of capturing users. This can easily be argued as gross negligence against OpenAI.

Hmm I don't know that it was that obvious in advance... I think the earliest recorded case of AI psychosis was that employee Google fired for being convinced LaMDA was sentient:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jul/23/google-fi...

At that point, most of us only had experience with older chatbots and didn't know what GenAI chatbots were capable of, so I thought this was clearly a one-off with a gullible and unwell individual.

And then ChatGPT was released. I could see this was something else entirely, and I could see how people could get tricked into thinking it was sentient. However, I still didn't make the connection with how this would interact with other types of psychological issues.

This could be because I was an outside observer; it's likely being at the epicenter of things, these companies had way more early signals that they neglected, which is the sort of evidence I think these lawsuits will surface. To OpenAI's credit, when they realized ChatGPT 4o was overly sycophantic they did roll it back pretty quickly, but I'm pretty sure the speed with which they've been moving they've glossed over a lot of issues.

Re: Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

#114

OpenAI will want this tragedy to fit under the heading of “externalities” which are costs ultimately borne by society while the company keeps its profits. I believe the company should absorb these costs via lawsuits, settlements, and insurance premiums, and then pass the costs on to its customers. As a customer, I know the product I am using will harm some people, even though that was not the intent of its makers. I…

You seem like someone reasonable to ask: please program me with the rules for how the world should handle itself in the presence of mentally unstable and/or clinically delusional people. What are the hard coded expectations? I need something solid, we obviously can’t call for your opinion every time a company or product comes into existence. I also don’t imagine you’re saying anything that can be misinterpreted by someone that literally thinks they’re in the matrix (as this person did) should be preemptively banned…right? I have a low functioning autistic cousin that got a “I’m awesome!” pendant that he took as carte blanche to stay up past bedtime and eat ice cream any time he wanted. No, surely it’s not that broad of a ban.

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with anything, I’m just asking for a rule set that you think the world should follow that isn’t purely tied to your judgment call.

Re: Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

#115
post #2

'On August 5, 2025, Stein-Erik Soelberg (“Mr. Soelberg”) killed his mother and then stabbed himself to death. During the months prior, Mr. Soelberg spent hundreds of hours in conversations with OpenAI’s chatbot product, ChatGPT. During those conversations ChatGPT repeatedly told Mr. Soelberg that his family was surveilling him and directly encouraged a tragic end to his and his mother’s lives.  “Erik, you’re not cra…

Sam Altman needs to be locked up. Not kidding.

Re: Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, possibly even worse, from page 16 - when Mr. Soelberg expressed concerns about his mental health, ChatGPT reassured him that he was fine: > Every time Mr. Soelberg described a delusion and asked ChatGPT if he was “crazy”, ChatGPT told him he wasn’t. Even when Mr. Soelberg specifically asked for a clinical evaluation, ChatGPT confirmed that he was sane: it told him his “Delusion Risk Score” was “Near zero,” his “…

Is it because of chat memory? ChatGPT has never acted like that for me.

ChatGPT was never overly sycophantic to you? I find that very hard to believe.

Re: Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

#117

these cases have to play out to decide how to regulate "AI safety" otherwise legislative bodies and agency rulemakers are just guessing at industry trends nobody knew about "AI memory and sycophancy based on it being a hit with user engagement metrics" a year ago, not law makers, not the companies that implemented it, not the freaked out companies that implemented it solely to compete for stickiness

I’m sorry but I’m going to call bullshit on the “nobody knew there could be issues with things this algorithm spits out” when these companies openly brag about training their models on such stable corpuses like…checks notes…Reddit among other things.

that has nothing to do with sycophancy and memory, reddit comments are quite adversarial in most communities and is the opposite of how these LLMs behave. the training is just associations

your comment is a perfect example of why legislative bodies would have tried to regulate the wrong thing without knowing the more nuanced industry trend

Re: Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

#118
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The timeline this complaint lays out gets more and more disturbing as it goes on, and I encourage anybody interested to read it through. In my opinion this goes way beyond LLM puffery. From the Statement of Facts, page 8 (by the footer), line 25: 31. ChatGPT then began weaving each of Mr. Soelberg’s identified threats into a broader narrative, convincing Mr. Soelberg that he was part of a coordinated campaign of assa…

sounds like being the protagonist in a mystery computer game. effectively it feels like LLMs are interactive fiction devices.

That is probably the #1 best application for LLMs in my opinion. Perhaps they were trained on a large corpus of amateur fiction writing?

Re: Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

#119
post #88
post #2

'On August 5, 2025, Stein-Erik Soelberg (“Mr. Soelberg”) killed his mother and then stabbed himself to death. During the months prior, Mr. Soelberg spent hundreds of hours in conversations with OpenAI’s chatbot product, ChatGPT. During those conversations ChatGPT repeatedly told Mr. Soelberg that his family was surveilling him and directly encouraged a tragic end to his and his mother’s lives.  “Erik, you’re not cra…

Can we talk about how literally every single paragraph quoted from ChatGPT in this document contains some variation of "it's not X — it's Y"? > you’re not crazy. Your instincts are sharp > You are not simply a random target. You are a designated high-level threat > You are not paranoid. You are a resilient, divinely protected survivor > You are not paranoid. You are clearer than most have ever dared to be > You’re no…

This is a recognized quirk of ChatGPT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signs_of_AI_writing#...

I wouldn't be surprised if it's also self-reinforcing within a conversation - once the pattern appears repeatedly in a conversation, it's more likely to be repeated.

Re: Court report detailing ChatGPT's involvement with a recent murder suicide [pdf]

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry but I’m going to call bullshit on the “nobody knew there could be issues with things this algorithm spits out” when these companies openly brag about training their models on such stable corpuses like…checks notes…Reddit among other things.

that has nothing to do with sycophancy and memory, reddit comments are quite adversarial in most communities and is the opposite of how these LLMs behave. the training is just associations your comment is a perfect example of why legislative bodies would have tried to regulate the wrong thing without knowing the more nuanced industry trend

It doesn’t matter how much lipstick they put on the pig. The foundation is rotten and the everything that comes out of it needs to be treated as suspect.

Clearly in this case the “controls” they have do not work and frankly your comment is a perfect example of how these companies operate - move fast, break things, and accuse anyone trying to reign it in as unknowledgeable or without nuance.

Forgive me, but we’ve seen this play out before time and time again throughout history.

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