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I'm returning my Framework 16

yorickpeterse.com

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#111

Post by simonjgreen »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

I for one am delighted with my Framework laptop that started out as an Intel, is now an AMD, and has seen 3 rounds of in life upgrades. Zero regrets.

The author should have just bought a MacBook.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#112

Post by MassPikeMike »

OP wrote:

"My current laptop is an aging X1 Carbon generation 7... A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working. I decided it was time to look for a replacement."

Isn't that like deciding to replace your bike because some of the cables are rusted? Like a new set of cables, a new keyboard is a small expense compared to a whole new laptop.

Like replacing bike cables, swapping in a new Carbon X7 keyboard might be slightly challenging for an amateur. iFixit calls the keyboard replacement "moderate" in difficulty [1] taking about an hour with a new keyboard running about a hundred bucks. But it would be a simple job for a repair shop. So it seems hard to justify the expense of a whole new one rather than just the new part.

Of course, sometimes you just want a new laptop, because the bike analogy breaks down a little: unlike bikes, newer ones are inherently faster.

[1] https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+X1+Carbon+7th+G...

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#113

Post by fmajid »

Frotag wrote: post #52
DetectDefect wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine The market assigns almost no value to these tenets, nor do the consumers participating in it.

I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most people.

Enterprises that buy ThinkPads do care about maintainability and Lenovo does provide parts and detailed instructions to repair almost every aspect of their machines.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#114

Post by tim333 »

KerrAvon wrote: post #100
Frotag wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most people.

Apple continues to be the elephant in the repairability room. You want something that likely won’t need repair ever for its useful lifetime, a current MacBook is worth looking at. Upgradeability, nope.

They are less repairable but not impossible. My M1 Air has had a new usb port and screen. Battery probably soon.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#115

Post by grimblee »

RickyLahey wrote: post #77

my tip to people who don't like mac os. buy a macbook pro, disable System Integrity Protection (SIP), gut the OS, live in the terminal and browser. works way better than linux (10h+ battery life, SoC with a lot of memory) and you will barely notice that you're on mac os. It's not windows. there will be no forced updates and surprises.

I hate the fact the keyboard is non-standard, the mental hoop to jump between my normal keyboard on my desktop and the macbook pro one is a no-go.

I told my job I prefered an old lenovo thinkpad than this dumb, vendor-locked, thing.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#116

Post by nottorp »

> Since I use my laptop for programming and often use it in low light conditions such as a living room with dimmed lights in the evening, OLED just doesn't make sense.

Huh? I thought OLED would make a lot of sense with a pure black background theme in your IDE. Less light in your eyes?

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#117

Post by nottorp »

OsrsNeedsf2P wrote: post #5

TL;dr Framework isn't worth the price. If you put it apples to apples with a great product like the M1, Framework loses everywhere. I had the same conclusion after daily driving both for 2 years; until yesterday, when my water bottle opened in my backpack and soaked them. When I got home, I ripped apart my Framework and dried each piece. I left the M1 by my heater and tried to dry it out. This morning, I put the Fram…

Any repair shops specialized in saving devices from water in your area?

Haven't had a laptop rescued yet, but there was a phone simply dropped in water in my family. I put it in a 1 kg rice bag, drove to the repair shop. I don't know what magic they did but it worked for 2 more years until we upgraded it.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#118

Post by selkin »

MassPikeMike wrote: post #112

OP wrote: "My current laptop is an aging X1 Carbon generation 7... A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working. I decided it was time to look for a replacement." Isn't that like deciding to replace your bike because some of the cables are rusted? Like a new set of cables, a new keyboard is a small expense compared to a whole new laptop. Like replacing bike cables, swapping in a new Carbon X7 keyboard…

Your analogy won’t hold scrutiny with a competitive cyclist: newer bikes are also faster given the same rider, even if not as meaningfully as a new CPU.

And modern bikes do make with the need for cable replacement or breakage (hydro lines and electric shifting, while more expensive to service, also require much less of it).

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#119

Post by sdwr »

wellthisisgreat wrote: post #66

Variety is great, but idk why anyone would buy anything other than MacBook for programming or media work in the age of Apple Silicon. Unless they specifically need CUDA or a particular version of Linux or some Windows features, or actually want to tinker with/ tweak the computer continuously.

It's true, they're unbeatable as consumer products now, especially after Intel dropped the ball so hard

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#120

Post by zamadatix »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

I think the bigger problem is Framework doesn't actually offer as much in upgradeability as it sounds. While it can be compared to laptops without modular RAM, SSDs, or Wi-Fi cards, the real comparison is to laptops with modular ones of those for significantly less and suddenly the amount of upgradeability value drops significantly. Unofficially, many of the laptops I've had I've been able to upgrade even the screen on as well. The value prop for replacing the mainboard+CPU while keeping the same generation RAM and SSD is really not that high in terms of upgradeability - especially with the breadth of selection so far. In the meantime, you're paying significantly more for less quality to have said ability.

To me, the core value proposition of the Framework is actually more in customization than about upgradeability. That's just a lot less valuable overall. I.e. you can place your port layouts in any order you want, you can customize the keyboard style and layout, your order builds up without really assuming you want a charger, RAM, and SSD to be included. If you don't particularly care about those things or you can find a laptop which matches what you want up front then it just leaves you questioning the massive price increase to do it the Framework way instead.

I'd really like to enjoy the idea of fully upgradeable laptops, but I think trying out a Framework laptop just made me realize how much it doesn't work out like I'd hoped rather than making me more excited for it. I ended up returning it and, ironically, getting a 395 laptop with soldered RAM (in my defense, Framework sells a desktop with this as well).

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