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What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

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Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#111
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eli5 is a common way of asking for clarification. That's all.

It's common, I know what it means. It communicated its intent properly, I think. It's surprising to me that a venture capital finance site would need to clarify the difference between value and wealth, and I would be interested in hearing questions about this, but "ELI5" doesn't even meet the basic criteria for being a question. It asks no questions.

Not to mention one could easily search Google for "wealth versus value" and get tons of explanations in a few seconds.

People just like having things handed to them I guess.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#112
"while the flood of gold into Spain in the 16th century seemed like a big haul at the time, by modern standards it was a trivial amount. Total world gold production during the 1500s is estimated to have been around 36 tons;"

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World silver production during the 16th century was around 23 thousand tons[1]. Silver was closer in value to gold back then too, at around one tenth the value per weight. The economic impact of new world gold was a rounding error compared to the impact of silver.

If you have a mental image of Spanish conquistadors sparking global inflation purely by looting Inca gold, erase it. The real culprit was silver extracted from Potosi and a few other New world mines.

[1]https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc40312/m2/1/...

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#113
post #16

> The problem was that the conquest of the New World left Spain with a lot more money, but not that much more wealth, if you follow me. ELI5, please!

Spain’s colonies funneled huge amounts of gold and silver into the European economies without a complementary increase in productivity to absorb it, causing massive inflation. A ship for transatlantic shipping might have first cost 100,000 maravedí to build and equip before the treasure fleet expeditions, but afterwards with so much gold flowing into the economy and lots of competition for a limited ship building ind…

Sounds an awful lot like the AI data center build out sucking up resources at the expense of the rest of the economy. E.g.: Sam Altman cornering the market for computer memory.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#114
post #92

As I understand it, some of the silver was siphoned off in trade with China (via the trans-Pacific route to Manila). China needed continuing silver imports because silver was not used there in the form of standardized coinage, but rather in ingots that were weighed and subdivided, with inevitable continuing loss.

I've not heard the inevitable loss as a culprit for Chinese demand. IIRC it had to do with a failed paper money system triggering inflation followed by a reversion to silver for exchange plus a growing population and market forces from the new supply from the new world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_silver_trade_from_the_1...

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re sadly living through the same thing right now

And people won't point to the actual causes: - The COVID free-money needed to be less and to end sooner - The COVID restrictions needed to be less and end sooner The disease didn't go away, we just at one point decided we were done with restrictions even though conditions didn't change. We needed restrictions ONLY during spikes and more consideration needed to be given to the long term economic effects of COVID polic…

Everything is easier in hindsight isn't it? Especially with such a complex problem.

> The COVID restrictions needed to be less and end sooner

What would we have been optimizing for here? GDP? Deaths? ICU Capacity? Lifestyle? Or would we weight them? If so would we take 2nd and 3rd order effects into consideration?

> An example graph, when restrictions should have been on or off left as an exercise to the reader

I lived in a country/state that did this during the pandemic. It wasn't a case of restrictions on, restrictions off. It was more a dialing back or ramping up of restrictions. If you look at other countries that did this you will still find the wave pattern. If I had to guess that is related to immunity after exposure. What would change however is the height of the peaks. With it's political/media landscape I don't know if the approach you suggest could have been applied effectively in the USA. Ultimately what drives cases/deaths is human behavior and the virus itself. Those who thought covid was an issue were taking precautions regardless of the restrictions.

> The disease didn't go away, we just at one point decided we were done with restrictions even though conditions didn't change.

This is a gross simplification of the whole pandemic. If I was to narrativize it I would say that over time as exposure to the virus increased it became less deadly so the vast majority of the people who were already prone to dying via covid had done so already.

> The problem is it became a non-expert political issue where people who knew meme-facts based on their social bubble only really argued absolutist policies against stone wall opposition.

This is more a comment on the political/media landscape than the response to covid itself. People have to operate within the system. If they present any sort of nuanced idea then they are persecuted by roughly 50% of the population whose narrative it infringes upon.

> We needed people in a minmax mode arguing about specific levels of risk vs reward to set optimums, instead you had 0 risk folks screaming at 0 restriction folks screaming back with the middle entirely excluded. (We'll STILL get people on both sides responding here)

The WHO was very clear at the beginning of the pandemic about the risks of the virus. For wealthy countries whose hospitals were "lean and mean" a high number of cases would cause immense pressure on these hospitals resulting in otherwise avoidable deaths not just from covid but from other things that would result from a limited ICU capacity. By this I mean life saving operations getting cancelled because there was no capacity in the ICU. It's also worth mentioning the restrictions pared with the financial aid allowed people to stay at home and not engage in any risk taking activities.

To summarize I think it's easy to arm chair quarterback the response to the pandemic. It's like most of politics. We sit here watching what is effectively a shadow puppet show but are left clueless to what is really going on because if we did know we can't be trusted with the secrets, or wouldn't be able to understand the data, or would object to a course of action as an emotional response, even if what is presented is truthful and the most optimal solution to a problem. The "masks are ineffective" narrative at the beginning of the pandemic was a classic example of this.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people won't point to the actual causes: - The COVID free-money needed to be less and to end sooner - The COVID restrictions needed to be less and end sooner The disease didn't go away, we just at one point decided we were done with restrictions even though conditions didn't change. We needed restrictions ONLY during spikes and more consideration needed to be given to the long term economic effects of COVID polic…

Everything is easier in hindsight isn't it? Especially with such a complex problem. > The COVID restrictions needed to be less and end sooner What would we have been optimizing for here? GDP? Deaths? ICU Capacity? Lifestyle? Or would we weight them? If so would we take 2nd and 3rd order effects into consideration? > An example graph, when restrictions should have been on or off left as an exercise to the reader I liv…

I agree with everything you said

I just want to add that there is always a latent chaos / anarchy in people ready to jump at any oportunity to convince others to follow them. Doomsayers introducing themselves as messiahs. They are any combination of pseudoscience, religion and conspiracy. All this in addition of the normal political power struggles.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re sadly living through the same thing right now

And people won't point to the actual causes: - The COVID free-money needed to be less and to end sooner - The COVID restrictions needed to be less and end sooner The disease didn't go away, we just at one point decided we were done with restrictions even though conditions didn't change. We needed restrictions ONLY during spikes and more consideration needed to be given to the long term economic effects of COVID polic…

If you are talking about the US, the COVID money needed to be distributed to the people, not to rich investors to buy stock and land.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#119
post #97
post #92

As I understand it, some of the silver was siphoned off in trade with China (via the trans-Pacific route to Manila). China needed continuing silver imports because silver was not used there in the form of standardized coinage, but rather in ingots that were weighed and subdivided, with inevitable continuing loss.

It was very surprising to see zero mention of the Manila galleon[0] trade route in the linked article, even if technically the question was about gold rather than silver. The simple answer to the question of what happened to the money was that Spain spent it! The impacts on SE Asia were profound and are still being felt today. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_galleon

Would love to read about the impact on SE Asia that continue until today. Do you have a recommended resource?

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#120
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea what you are talking about. 1. They never returned 92tons of gold. The vast majority of the national treasure is still in Moscow. I hope the EU ties this to the current Russian assets frozen in the EU. 2. Bolsheviks ? Russia collapsed in 1917 and Bassarabia voted to join Romania. There was no Russian control in Bassarabia, no war, no fight. Nobody forced them, true, they were in dire circumstances, b…

Please read again and calm down. I expressly said "ex gold." >Bolsheviks ? Lmao. Where are you getting these falses premises? 1. Who rose to power after Russia collapsed in 2017? 2. There was no Bolshevik fighting or presence in Bessarabia? 3. Romania didn't intervene to fight Bolsheviks in Bessarabia? You must be hallucinating to think otherwise.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_military_intervention...

1. You use 'ex' to mean except ? In common parlance ex means 'example'. So your phrase becomes: National treasures (example gold) were returned in '35 and '56.

Which is what I responded to.

Gold was part bars and part rare historical coins.

Also still unreturned, which is extremely valuable:

Queen Marie’s jewels were not returned The Romanian Crown Jewels were not returned Royal and dynastic archives Private deposits of Romanian citizens Orthodox Church treasures

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2024-0171...

2. Who were these Bolsheviks ? There was no government, they weren't Russian / Soviet - what were they ? Give me some source that shows Romania was fighting Tsarist Russia / URSS / Russia (?). Your article doesn't clarify that at all. I wonder why.

Romania entrusted Tsarist Russia with its national treasure.

Do you deny there's state continuity from before 1918 ?

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