Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Koralm Railway

infrastruktur.oebb.at

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 206 posts

Re: Koralm Railway

#111

Post by b0vinat-- »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #101

Austria is the only European country I've been to that doesn't have cheap affordable intercity buses. Seemingly none at all. It was kind of strange... Does anyone know why? The only options to get around was the expensive train system - and anyone I asked was bewildered why I would want to take a bus.. Maybe next time I should look in to carpooling or some other options. How do low income people get around typically?…

That part of Europe has historically loved its trains. The train is more than transportation there. It’s an institution and part of the culture. Have you been to a toy store and looked at the precision and cost of the train sets? They don’t just ride the train, the train is part of who they are and what they love, starting when they’re small children. The trains run on-time, they’re clean, and overall they tend to be more modern. In addition, people walk.

Re: Koralm Railway

#112

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #109
seqastian wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another one between Italy, Austria and by extension Germany is scheduled for 2032 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel

Isn't Italy a little geologically unstable? I'd be a bit nervous, going through a long tunnel, in a region known for vulcanism and earthquakes.

It is unstable, but (I think) more so in the south. I'm not sure that the Alps region is unstable.

Re: Koralm Railway

#113

Post by monster_truck »

manarth wrote: post #43
monster_truck wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rock they dug through for Koralm is, no hyperbole, about as bad as it gets. It's the gnarliest part of what's under the Alps and required them switching back and forth between boring and blasting. Being two separate tunnels, it also needs twice as much excavation work. It's also ~25x deeper than Toei Oedo (4000ft vs 157ft). At 4000ft the rock itself is 45-50C!

The Koralm tunnel has a different temperature gradient, as the depth is a consequence of a mountain on top of the tunnel, rather than an increased proximity to the earth crust/core. > "The undisturbed rock temperature varies from 10 °C, in tunnel sections close to the portals, to 32 °C in the tunnel centre" 32°C is still a significant engineering concern, but not as consequential as 45–50°C. https://www.sciencedirect…

Looks like they reported a peak of 39C in the summer. Either way I figured that would still be pretty miserable, especially if it gets up around 100% humidity.

Assumed they would at least have their own air in the bits that didn't have aircon/ventilation while it was being built. They don't even need to do that anymore! The ventilation systems they used are as advanced and bespoke as the boring machines.

Because they were blasting too, they couldn't utilize full-face pressurization of the entire tunnel to maintain negative pressure to suck all of the fumes, dust, silicates, etc out like they would if it was only boring. That's 1-3kPa, "leaks are jets of air, can pull an airlock door closed hard enough to break bones" territory.

Instead, they have a bunch of dedicated supply and exhaust vents going to the surface (some up to 2m in diameter) and sets of connections between the two tunnels with huge axial fans. It allows them to selectively apply "slight" negative pressure to any of the individual segments when they need to clear them. 50Pa is ~10x what you encounter in a negative pressure highrise. It is described as a "constant slight breeze"

I found this short video on some of the safety features of the finished tunnel. It almost looks "too serious", like something out of a James Bond movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8trt96huf0

Re: Koralm Railway

#114

Post by jack_tripper »

tomw1808 wrote: post #107
contrarian1234 wrote: post #101

Austria is the only European country I've been to that doesn't have cheap affordable intercity buses. Seemingly none at all. It was kind of strange... Does anyone know why? The only options to get around was the expensive train system - and anyone I asked was bewildered why I would want to take a bus.. Maybe next time I should look in to carpooling or some other options. How do low income people get around typically?…

yes, we do, e.g. flixbus. and some others I think. Haven't been traveling for a while by bus around Austria. Apples/Oranges probably, but I do know vienna bratislava has like 3-4 different companies operating the same route with similar busses at similar times with different prices. And talking about apples/oranges, let me add apples/bananas: Vienna to Budapest by train cost a lot when booking via öbb. And not a lot…

Yep, single tickets on Austrian ÖBB is not cheap at all without subscriptions or discounts.

Prices are good only if you use it regularly as a commuter via a yearly subscription (Klimaticket), but for one off trips, prices are more expensive than flying.

Re: Koralm Railway

#115

Post by monster_truck »

sweezyjeezy wrote: post #82
monster_truck wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rock they dug through for Koralm is, no hyperbole, about as bad as it gets. It's the gnarliest part of what's under the Alps and required them switching back and forth between boring and blasting. Being two separate tunnels, it also needs twice as much excavation work. It's also ~25x deeper than Toei Oedo (4000ft vs 157ft). At 4000ft the rock itself is 45-50C!

It's also really hard to make the tunnel remain a tunnel over its expected 150 year lifespan - given that it basically runs through a fault line. They had to study and test local geology for about 15 years, build certain sections to expect some movement over time, as well as kit everything out with a lot of sensors. Overall an amazing achievement, and unsurprising it took this long to figure out!

After seeing some of the safety features in a short video I linked in another comment, I get the impression that this is either going to last much longer than 150 years or something so catastrophic will happen that nothing that could have been built would've persisted.

Re: Koralm Railway

#116

Post by jack_tripper »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #101

Austria is the only European country I've been to that doesn't have cheap affordable intercity buses. Seemingly none at all. It was kind of strange... Does anyone know why? The only options to get around was the expensive train system - and anyone I asked was bewildered why I would want to take a bus.. Maybe next time I should look in to carpooling or some other options. How do low income people get around typically?…

>Does anyone know why?

Small county with small market monopolized by few politically connected local players in every major sector of the economy who sometimes enjoy regulatory protectionism from the government to keep foreign competitors out and turn a blind eye on racketeering practices.

That's how everything, including stuff made in Austria is more expensive than the same stuff sold in Germany even though wages are lower.

Same issues like in other small markets like New Zeeland except Austria being an EU member should have more pressure from free trade competition but that doesn't always work in favor of the consumers.

Re: Koralm Railway

#117

Post by jasona123 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #95

Lol. And in north american train news, canada's newest rail line in only 10km long, was way over budget, years late, and is slower than jogging. >> A CBC Toronto reporter rode the entire 10.3-kilometre line from east to west Monday morning, finding it took roughly 55 minutes to complete. As a reference point, over 400 runners ran this year's Toronto Marathon 10-kilometre event in under 55 minutes https://www.cbc.ca/n…

And yet the Eglinton Crosstown still isn't open... I'm so close to making a site that just lists every project that's started and finished in the entire time that thing has been "under construction".

Re: Koralm Railway

#118

Post by jack_tripper »

lxgr wrote: post #104
contrarian1234 wrote: post #101

Austria is the only European country I've been to that doesn't have cheap affordable intercity buses. Seemingly none at all. It was kind of strange... Does anyone know why? The only options to get around was the expensive train system - and anyone I asked was bewildered why I would want to take a bus.. Maybe next time I should look in to carpooling or some other options. How do low income people get around typically?…

Flixbus definitely exists in Austria, but people generally take the train, which is much faster and more comfortable. There are various discount membership plans available that sometimes pay for themselves after just one round-trip or even one-way ride, and on the most popular connections there's now a private operator competing with the state-owned railway. A yearly flat-rate ticket for intercity trains is also rela…

>Flixbus definitely exists in Austria, but people generally take the train, which is much faster and more comfortable.

Not always true. The Graz-Vienna(Airport) trip is often quicker by flixbus than by OBB train.

Trains in Austria are quite slow , often travelling at the same speed as cars on the highway or often times even slower.

Re: Koralm Railway

#119

Post by bombcar »

butlike wrote: post #92
spacechild1 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too! But why did you need a quick connection between Klagenfurt and Graz as a child? I would have rather longed for a high speed train between Hermagor and Villach ;-)

What kid doesn't go through a 'train phase?' and a grand plan to improve the railway could be exciting to a child even if it's more spectacle than utility.

Especially since a child will see all the visualizations and such that are put out before work begins.

Re: Koralm Railway

#120

Post by monster_truck »

oniony wrote: post #24
monster_truck wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7x longer for 11x the cost seems pretty good all things considered. Always thought it seemed like a waste to not also dig out a bunch of storage while we're down there. I'm sure there are good reasons we don't

It's not seven times longer. The Austrian line is 130km with 50km of tunnels. Length Tunnels Bridges Stations Cost Koralm 130km ~50km 100 12 €6b HS2 230km ~75km 100+ 4 €74b+ Obviously this does not give any indication of the complexity of each project. Tunnelling and building railway through a metropolis I would imagine is quite challenging.

HS2 is five sets of twin bore tunnels, so there is more "tunnel per tunnel"
Post reply on HN