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Django: what’s new in 6.0

adamj.eu

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Re: Django: what’s new in 6.0

#111

Post by BowBun »

hintoftime wrote: post #87
JimDabell wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Many Problems with Celery: — https://steve.dignam.xyz/2023/05/20/many-problems-with-celer... > The problems with (Python’s) Celery: — https://docs.hatchet.run/blog/problems-with-celery > Dramatiq motivation: — https://dramatiq.io/motivation.html Here are some alternatives: Dramatiq: https://github.com/Bogdanp/dramatiq RQ: https://github.com/rq/rq Huey: https://github.com/coleifer/huey Hatchet: https://github.co…

Would you consider tools like Temporal, DBOS, Absurd Workflows, PGQueuer as alternatives? https://temporal.io/ https://docs.dbos.dev/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45797228 https://python-absurd-client.readthedocs.io/en/latest/quicks... https://pgqueuer.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

Temporal is an AMAZING piece of software, however I don't believe it's a replacement for something more simple like Celery. Even if you write helpers, the overhead to setting up workflows, invoking them, etc. is just too much for simple jobs like sending an email (imo). I would love to work in a codebase that had access to both, depending on the complexity of what you're trying to background.

Re: Django: what’s new in 6.0

#112

Post by freedomben »

sgt wrote: post #108
tclancy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it’s a seducer. It does what you need to do and you two are happy together. So you shower more tasks on Celery and it becomes cold and non-responsive at random times. And debugging is a pain in the ass. Most places I’ve been that have it, I’ve tried to sell them on adding Flower to give better insight and everyone thinks that’s a very good idea but there isn’t time because we need to debug these inscrutable C…

Although we could say the same thing about Kafka, couldn't we? It's made for much higher throughput and has usually other use cases, but it's also great until it's not great.

At least the last time I used Kafka (which was several years ago so things might have changed) it wasn't at all easy to get started. It was a downright asshole in fact. If you pursue a relationship with an asshole, you shouldn't be surprised when they become cold to you

Re: Django: what’s new in 6.0

#114

Post by formerly_proven »

tmarice wrote: post #74
teagee wrote: post #3

Any code or blog written by Adam is worth spending some time on. It will be interesting to see how the tasks framework develops and expands. I am sad to see the great Django-Q2 lumped in with the awful Celery though.

Celery is the worst background task framework, except for all the others. There are bugs and issues, but because so many people are using it, you’re rarely the first to stumble upon a problem. We processed double-digit millions of messages daily with Celery + RabbitMQ without major obstacles. Regardless of what people say, it should be your first go-to.

Celery has way too much magic crammed into it, it is very annoying to debug, and produces interesting bugs. Celery is/was also a "pickle-first" API and this almost always turns out to be the wrong choice. As a rule of thumb, persisting pickles is a really bad idea. Trying to hide IPC / make-believe that it's not there tends to be a bad idea. Trying to hide interfaces between components tends to be a bad idea. Celery combines all of these bad ideas into one blob. The last time I looked the code was also a huge mess, even for old-guard-pythonic-code standards.

Re: Django: what’s new in 6.0

#116

Post by formerly_proven »

luxcem wrote: post #106
aynyc wrote: post #97

I've been using Django on and off at work for the past few years. I really like it. That being said, I still find its ORM difficult. I understand it now that since it's an opinionated framework, I need to follow Django way of thinking. The main issue is that at work, I have multiple databases from different business units. So I constantly have to figure out a way to deal with multiple databases and their idiosyncrasi…

I've been using Django for the last 10+ years, its ORM is good-ish. At some point there was a trend to use sqlalchemy instead but it was not worth the effort. The Manager interface is also quite confusing at first. What I find really great is the migration tool.

Since Django has gained mature native migrations there is a lot less point to using SQLAlchemy in a Django project, though SQLAlchemy is undeniably the superior and far more capable ORM. That should be unsurprising though - sqlalchemy is more code than the entire django package, and sqlalchemy + alembic is roughly five times as many LOC as django.db, and both are similar "density" code.

Re: Django: what’s new in 6.0

#117

Post by WD-42 »

formerly_proven wrote: post #116
luxcem wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using Django for the last 10+ years, its ORM is good-ish. At some point there was a trend to use sqlalchemy instead but it was not worth the effort. The Manager interface is also quite confusing at first. What I find really great is the migration tool.

Since Django has gained mature native migrations there is a lot less point to using SQLAlchemy in a Django project, though SQLAlchemy is undeniably the superior and far more capable ORM. That should be unsurprising though - sqlalchemy is more code than the entire django package, and sqlalchemy + alembic is roughly five times as many LOC as django.db, and both are similar "density" code.

Makes sense as sqlalchemy’s docs are also 5x as confusing.

Re: Django: what’s new in 6.0

#118

Post by aynyc »

sgt wrote: post #103
aynyc wrote: post #97

I've been using Django on and off at work for the past few years. I really like it. That being said, I still find its ORM difficult. I understand it now that since it's an opinionated framework, I need to follow Django way of thinking. The main issue is that at work, I have multiple databases from different business units. So I constantly have to figure out a way to deal with multiple databases and their idiosyncrasi…

Also don't underestimate setting up e.g. views or materialized views even that you can use through the ORM to query. It helps a lot and allows you to combine fine tuning SQL with ease of use through Django, and get a lot of performance out of it. Just remember to create them in the migration scripts.

Any docs? Django migration is a HUUGE pain point for us.

Re: Django: what’s new in 6.0

#119

Post by aynyc »

JodieBenitez wrote: post #102
aynyc wrote: post #97

I've been using Django on and off at work for the past few years. I really like it. That being said, I still find its ORM difficult. I understand it now that since it's an opinionated framework, I need to follow Django way of thinking. The main issue is that at work, I have multiple databases from different business units. So I constantly have to figure out a way to deal with multiple databases and their idiosyncrasi…

Do you use Django's multiple databases support ? ( https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/6.0/topics/db/multi-db/ )

Yes, we have to in order to use a lot of the features. The core issue for us is really the way Django assumes code represents database state. In normal webapp where the application has full control of the database, that's a good idea. But our databases are overloaded for simple transactions, analytics, users managements, jobs and AI. Business uses the databases in various ways such as Power BI, Aquastudio, etc.. Django app is actually a tiny part of the database. As you can imagine, we duck tape the heck out of the databases, and Django goes bonkers when things aren't matching.

Re: Django: what’s new in 6.0

#120

Post by WesleyJohnson »

aynyc wrote: post #118
sgt wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also don't underestimate setting up e.g. views or materialized views even that you can use through the ORM to query. It helps a lot and allows you to combine fine tuning SQL with ease of use through Django, and get a lot of performance out of it. Just remember to create them in the migration scripts.

Any docs? Django migration is a HUUGE pain point for us.

  manage.py makemigrations myapp --empty --name add_some_view
(in the migration file)

  operations=[migrations.RunSQL("Create View some_view AS ....", "DROP VIEW IF EXISTS...."]
(in your models.py)

  class SomeView(models.Model):
       class Meta:
           db_table = 'some_view'
           managed = False

  manage.py makemigrations myapp --name add_some_view_model
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