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EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

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Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#111

Post by YeahThisIsMe »

squigz wrote: post #108
a022311 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing substantial has happened to the three texts since last week, it's just that "chat control is back" drives traffic and "Council preparatory body formally approves draft position that got consensus previously but didn't formally get passed because people were fighting over Ukraine stuff for too long" doesn't. While I agree with your point, it's still crucial to raise awareness of Europe's actions. It may be a…

Awareness of the reality, yes, but there's no reason to play people's emotions to get them "aware" of it - or in other words, get them angry about it.

Yes, there is. This shouldn't move forward at all, regardless of how many steps are involved and how small they are.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#112

Post by surgical_fire »

hn_throw2025 wrote: post #82
arlort wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not complicated for anyone with above room temperature IQ. And they're almost identical to how it works in the member countries anyway And in a democracy if you don't know how your own laws are made the fault is always yours as a voter

Identical in every respect other than those with the power to initiate legislation are completely immune to voter displeasure. The Commission have no direct link to the electorate and the your country's (sorry, “state”) Council representatives can hide behind collective consensus.

> Identical in every respect other than those with the power to initiate legislation are completely immune to voter displeasure.

You are aware that those with power to initiate legislation are appointed by national governments right?

If you are unhappy with how your country posed itself in those propositions, you can and should vote for parties that have different stances.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#113

Post by squigz »

I'm very curious what people in this thread think is happening now

Do you think Meta, Google and them are not scanning every bit of data hosted on their servers to ensure they're not hosting things they don't want to?

Do you think they don't cooperate with governments to share those findings?

I don't disagree that this push is silly, ineffective, and bad for democracy. We should fight it and fight for the right to privacy.

However, people are acting like we have privacy right now. What evidence is there for that?

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#114

Post by Traubenfuchs »

piker wrote: post #6

Even living nearby in the UK it blows my mind how quickly the EU proposes, kills and then revives and passes controversial legislation in such a short timeframe.

The UK keeps a register of non-crime hate incidents and invests its scarce police resources into harassing, arresting and punishing people for twitter posts.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#115

Post by myrmidon »

baiac wrote: post #49
jbstack wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a more libertarian government" As long as you are white British. If you're anything else you're probably going to be worse off under Farage. It's a shame that if you want to vote for someone with different policies to the two main parties, you have to accept that you are also voting for an outspoken racist.

[flagged]

Hard disagree on this. Immigration was the only realistic option to shield against demographic collapse and stabilize unskilled labor supply for decades, and it is no suprise that politicians took it.

I honestly think that if politicians had blocked this (reform style) in 2000, the resulting economic slowdown and increasing cost for labor intensive products would've seen them voted out in short order.

I do agree that negative consequences of the approach were played down/underestimated/neglected, but painting it as pure uncaring negative is just disingenuous.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#116

Post by latexr »

ggm wrote: post #73
permo-w wrote: post #11

why are specifically the Danish so obsessed with pushing this through? it always seems to come back to them

I was told the proposal the Danes carried forward actually had its roots from Sweden.

Every Chat Control proposal has its roots in Sweden. It originated with Ylva Johansson.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_to_Prevent_and_Comb...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ylva_Johansson

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#117

Post by graemep »

basisword wrote: post #80
zelphirkalt wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is of course a process, that does not lend itself to be democratic, because it is way longer than most people's attention span. People don't manage to remember things that happened in politics 4 years ago in their own country. Now they are required to follow up on dozens of shitty proposals, all probably illegal in their own country, and those don't even happen in their own country? That divides the number of pe…

>> that does not lend itself to be democratic, because it is way longer than most people's attention span The attention span of the general public _shouldn't_ matter. That's why we elect politicians.

> The attention span of the general public _shouldn't_ matter. That's why we elect politicians.

It would work if we could elect politicians who were both competent and trustworthy.

Of course that would require successfully electing people who are competent about a broad range of issues, able to see through well funded and clever lobbying, unblinded by ideology, and able to resist pressure.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#118

Post by RobotToaster »

piker wrote: post #6

Even living nearby in the UK it blows my mind how quickly the EU proposes, kills and then revives and passes controversial legislation in such a short timeframe.

That's generally how the EU works, they forced Ireland to hold another referenda after the first one rejected the Lisbon treaty

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#119

Post by baiac »

myrmidon wrote: post #115
baiac wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Hard disagree on this. Immigration was the only realistic option to shield against demographic collapse and stabilize unskilled labor supply for decades, and it is no suprise that politicians took it. I honestly think that if politicians had blocked this (reform style) in 2000, the resulting economic slowdown and increasing cost for labor intensive products would've seen them voted out in short order. I do agree that…

"stabilising unskilled labour" in this context means dumping the salaries of the natives, making it so unskilled sectors no longer provide a living wage.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#120

Post by cbeach »

exasperaited wrote: post #60
cbeach wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK we've had an authoritarian Conservative government for 14 years, followed by an even more authoritarian Labour government, which we'll have until 2029. In 2029 it's likely we'll have a more libertarian government: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/... Reform will repeal some of the awful legislation that's been passed over the last few years (e.g. Online Safety Act). They've been l…

> In 2029 it's likely we'll have a more libertarian government Haha you're so funny. If Reform get from, what is it right now, five -- or four, or six, depending on how the wind blows — MPs to 326 MPs, which is enough to secure the majority they think they are getting, then libertarian is not what that government will be. It will be populist, white and significantly authoritarian, because pure tabloid authoritarian t…

> libertarian is not what that government will be

How can you be so sure? Why do you assume that everything that the Reform chairman, Zia Yusuf (head of policy) is lies? What, from his history, suggests that he is a liar?

> catastrophic issues already affecting Reform councils like Kent.

A small number of councillors left, but KCC is still a strong Reform majority. Councillors come and go throughout the year (just look at the constant stream of council by-elections), so to call Kent a "catastrophe" is hyperbole.

> It will be populist, white and significantly authoritarian

Populist yes. But I've never understood why popular polices get such a bad rep in a supposed democracy?

White? So what? Although it's rapidly changing thanks to Tory/Labour policies, the UK remains a majority white country. Why is politicians' skin colour an issue in your mind?

"Significantly authoritarian" how? Can you name an "authoritarian" policy in Reform's last manifesto?

> Do you think Reform could succeed without Farage?

Yes. Zia Yusuf is an extraordinary man, and my money would be on him becoming the leader when Farage inevitably steps down. And your concerns about white politicians will hopefully be soothed when a second-generation Sri Lankan is our Reform prime minister.

https://www.youtube.com/@ZiaYusufOfficial

> the parliamentary maths to get to an outright majority is really extreme; the system does not support such things easily.

For that to happen, you need a strong i.e. 30%+ share, and you need numerous opposing parties with similar policies, and all polling at similar levels. That's EXACTLY what's happening, and the electoral calculus puts Reform on a strong majority (low = 325, high = 426)

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/...

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html

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