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DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

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111–120 of 158 posts

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering if Apple will need to adjust their prices to maintain their margins. Given the scale of price rises I'd say yes.

There's no way that Apple pays spot. They will have contracts directly with the manufacturers, guaranteeing them a given supply at a given price. Their whole business kinda depends on it.

Sure, but eventually the contracts will be renewed at possibly a much higher price. It depends on the details of the agreement whether the price is adjusted based on market price periodically too.

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#112
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The incentive for one of the big players to undercut the other on cost even just a little bit to pick up market share is extremely lucrative. I would argue that the DRAM price fixing scandal actually demonstrates that the industry operates like a cartel. During times of low demand and high supply, they will coordinate to protect prices, and then during spikes in demand (or alleged spikes in demand) they coordinate…

> then during spikes in demand (or alleged spikes in demand) they coordinate to keep the price from dropping. Why would they need to coordinate to keep the price from dropping during a spike in demand? a spike in demand will obviously not be expected to lower prices regardless of collusion

>Why would they need to coordinate to keep the price from dropping during a spike in demand?

They wouldn't you're right.

But I would expect for them to follow the sorts of behavior we've observed in other markets - egg prices, gasoline prices. When a spike occurs, even if as brief as a lightning strike, they will only very slowly drop prices, when in a purely capitalistic world the price drop ought to be equally fast - suggestive that the slow drop is a mutual agreed upon collusion. After all, it's in all sellers best interest to game that "consumers temporarily agreeable to scalping prices" as hard as possible, Nash equilibrium or whatever amongst sellers. Many such cases and more vicious and brutal punishments for such behavior would serve to benefit the common man, the final point and benefit of capitalism

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#113

I’m sad the mid to late 2010s alt reality era has come for HN the last 6 months, after 16 years here. This was my last respite for intellectual argumentation. Now, every day there’s multiple stories where you have to be caught up on this cinematic universe where AI is fake and doesn’t work and no one uses it and anyone who does is a grifter and or amateur and or embarrassing and any data centers they build will be a…

US gov wouldn't let AI bubble pop, the amount of money in circulation would make the US set back 5+ years and potentially into great depression the aftermath for tax payer and your 401k would be devastating

Not saying that you're wrong, but of course if there is a real AI bubble, then "not letting it pop" only escalates the damage when it does eventually pop. The best outcome all-around is for the market to form accurate expectations quite promptly about the real potential and capabilities of AI, regardless of the immediate consequences.

My own wild guess is that this spike in RAM and storage costs is more of a potential drag on the tech sector as a whole than AI companies specifically. Maybe we'll see some systems being reengineered to cut the waste and the technical debt throughout and be a bit leaner and meaner, since that will be making a real difference to the bottom line.

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US gov wouldn't let AI bubble pop, the amount of money in circulation would make the US set back 5+ years and potentially into great depression the aftermath for tax payer and your 401k would be devastating

Not saying that you're wrong, but of course if there is a real AI bubble, then "not letting it pop" only escalates the damage when it does eventually pop. The best outcome all-around is for the market to form accurate expectations quite promptly about the real potential and capabilities of AI, regardless of the immediate consequences. My own wild guess is that this spike in RAM and storage costs is more of a potentia…

or there is third way, AI company would achieve "near AGI" and "only" eliminated 80% job market

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#115

Shorten patents to 18months (the industry's innovation cycle, in the past). I'll bet you'll see a lot more output, esp. with low margins -- to make the market uninteresting for new players.

My personal opinion:

Trade Mark - as long as dues are paid

Patents a yearly cap of N things and only the most worthy get a 20 year patent, world wide.

Copyright ~ 5 years auto with exponentially more expensive renewals in 5 year blocks.

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#116

Unfortunately got some experience with that... Busy getting my new build together so today I bought a 8 Tb WD Black 2280 SSD, a 2 Tb WD Black 2230 SSD and 2 x 64 Gb Crucial SODIMMs for (in comparison) a whopping 1850 USD... Yes, that's pretty much a complete PC. Or at least it used to be. Hopefully prices for Radeons remain a bit stable for the coming weeks, I'm still figuring out which one to buy to replace my aging…

I am loving my sapphire 9070xt (pulse). It's pretty decent, and gets me ~100 tokens per second on gpt-oss-20b at i think 5bit quant. Bought it for a high high price of 70_000 inr in september

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in hopes of building a god which will convert the rest of the world into data centers I'm as pro AI as it comes, and I love your way of putting it. Very poignant.

if its what it takes then so be it which company achieve AGI first would be a quadrillion company

If you make something that's as smart as a sloppy intern and costs ten thousand dollars an hour to run, you're not going to make any money off of it.

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#118
I work in the refurb division of an ewaste recycling company. I was tipped off to these insane prices about two months ago, and switched focus from laptops to drives and RAM, and I'm starting to make bank. Roughly a petabyte of hard drives showed up two weeks ago, and I'm almost halfway through preparing all the drives. Hopefully I'll be able to finish and sell them in time to have a very merry Christmas.

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#119
Okay, this will be a bit on a conspiracy theory side, but there was a paper recently describing how to do matrix computations on a RAM stick connected to FPGA, and they've shown it's possible to do it cheaper per flop that GPUs. Except, of course, there's a variety of RAM producers.

It might either be artificial to keep GPU prices where they are, or someone already started building their RAM-based AI datacenter.

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#120
>Memory is being allocated to those with deeper pockets first

Yes, sellers fill the most expensive bids first.

>OpenAI's new "Stargate" project reportedly signed deals with Samsung and SK Hynix for up to 900,000 wafers of DRAM per month to feed its AI clusters, which is an amount close to 40% of total global DRAM output if it's ever met.

Right, so demand has pretty much doubled.

>In this cycle, manufacturers had cut back production and investment during the last downturn (2022), and they've been slow to ramp back up.

And manufacturers have been burnt by over production before and are cautious

>Another factor limiting supply of standard RAM is that memory firms are diverting their limited manufacturing capacity to the most lucrative products. Specifically, there's a gold rush for HBM, which is a special kind of memory used by AI accelerator GPUs, because HBM commands far higher prices and profit margins than commodity DRAM.

See above about filling the more lucrative bids first.

>I'm not saying that all of these reasons given aren't the cause for the recent price boom, but what I am saying is that it wouldn't be the first time that price-fixing occurred in the memory industry.

Ok so what should be done about it?

>While that second lawsuit didn't hold up in court (and failed in appeal), that ongoing suspicion exists for a reason.

K so there have been 2 claims, one spurious.

>Each firm knows that flooding the market would hurt all of their profits, so a form of unspoken coordination can occur, and this is next to impossible to prove.

See: Have been burnt by over production before. And Unspoken coordination is hardly an issue. Reacting to private information is bad, reacting to public information is normal and expected.

>It's hard not to see this supposedly coincidental aligned strategy of restraint and wonder if there's something more at play. All of these actions support pricing stability (for those companies) and suggests that no one is "breaking ranks" to grab a larger share by undercutting prices.

You are telling me that you are suspicious of an industry that has expanded, caused a glut that hurt their own businesses and killed their competitors, and are shying away from repeating that event that you outline as a clear mistake.

If theres so much money on the table, you will need another vendor. New RAM vendors have to weigh risk, including all the risk you have outlined, against what is likely a very massive capital outlay.

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