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A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

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Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person can own as much wealth as millions and the media is on their side; great men exist. Consider the alternatives to this. The first is that great works are being accomplished without anyone being in charge of them. People invent alternating current and land on the moon in a completely decentralized manner with no one leading the effort and no one making a larger contribution than anyone else. Not the thing…

What are you talking about? I don't think authority is bad. What we're talking about isn't purely organizational, its economical. Of course we need leaders, and groups, and hierarchy. What we don't need is structures that take from peoples labor. Hierarchy can be an abstraction of group decision making and not a relationship to the products of labor (as it is now). Or do you think people will only do things if others…

Hierarchy is someone being at the top. Who really freed the slaves, Abraham Lincoln or all the people who elected him and then fought as solders to win the ensuing war?

> Of course we need leaders, and groups, and hierarchy. What we don't need is structures that take from peoples labor.

These are inherently synonyms for each other. As soon as you have anyone deciding how resources are allocated, they're taking them from whoever did the work to create them to begin with.

The best you can hope for is voluntary interactions, which is to say competitive markets rather than oligopolies or government central planning. And that is going to result in large companies and big personalities -- it's only a problem when they become so large that they no longer have adequate competition, which is something that happens well after the point that they have leaders whose names people know.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much the same applies to moral advances, like other ideas they're produced by the zeitgeist rather than "made from whole cloth". So it's a valid defense to say that they didn't know any better. What purpose does considering them tainted serve? They're bad by modern standards, yes, and good by historical standards, and we ourselves are bad by future standards. So what is this even about, something to do with level of…

> Re-thinking: you might also be saying that any celebration of even a long-dead king might really be jingoism. But then I think it's the jingoism itself that should be done away with, not the celebration. I think that we should celebrate people who advanced the society _on_ _purpose_ and not accidentally. Intentionality matters. Such people were rarely in positions of power, and I'm not aware of any "good kings". Pa…

OK, but what does advancing society on purpose look like, in the 800s? This is before the invention of the concept of progress. People could only aspire to be good in a way that equated loosely to "holy", which for Charlemagne seems to have included "scholastic", and I think that's as reasonably close to intentionally advancing society as you're going to get, at that time. You may prefer to venerate some Frankish monk instead, who valued scholarship without also killing thousands of Saxons, but such a person would be less influential and would probably also approve of mass slaughter of pagans anyway.

Beccaria is interesting, it's true. Nothing wrong with digging up the underrated and overlooked, if you can find them.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much the same applies to moral advances, like other ideas they're produced by the zeitgeist rather than "made from whole cloth". So it's a valid defense to say that they didn't know any better. What purpose does considering them tainted serve? They're bad by modern standards, yes, and good by historical standards, and we ourselves are bad by future standards. So what is this even about, something to do with level of…

I'm on the side of "some kings deserve credit", but I think: >Much the same applies to moral advances, like other ideas they're produced by the zeitgeist rather than "made from whole cloth". is a rather weak argument. Moral advances actually are "made from whole cloth". Morality is objective[1] and can be reasoned from first principles. For example, murder. Murder is not wrong because Yahweh says so. Murder is wrong…

I'm totally down with the arrogant "morality is objective" viewpoint. However, I don't think it can be reasoned from first principles: I think "from first principles" gives a bad smell to almost any reasoning. I see knowledge as web-like in structure, not hierarchical, and I see moral ideas as belonging to a separate realm where they're supported by other moral ideas. (Consider that "gain" entails values, which are moral.) Some of these ideas are basal urges, but that doesn't make them superior. So, I can't agree with making historical figures at fault for their failure to arrive at a present-day state of morality by figuring everything out from first principles, because I do think it's something the culture does, gradually, as a group effort, with individuals considered "bad" only for failing to be up to speed by the standard of the time.

Incidentally, if they are to be blamed for failing to arrive at future morality by using the first-principle building blocks you suppose it to be made from, then so are we, and so are all future people, since morality is open-ended and there's always more to learn. We're all terribly guilty for not belonging to the infinitely far future, apparently.

Well, I suppose you can say "that whole society, in that place at that time, went down a morally wrong-headed path". I'm not very knowledgeable about Aztecs, for instance, but I believe they had some nasty traditions, as well as a cyclic world-view. Yet there must have been good Aztecs. (Even objectively, we have to consider things in context.)

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the side of "some kings deserve credit", but I think: >Much the same applies to moral advances, like other ideas they're produced by the zeitgeist rather than "made from whole cloth". is a rather weak argument. Moral advances actually are "made from whole cloth". Morality is objective[1] and can be reasoned from first principles. For example, murder. Murder is not wrong because Yahweh says so. Murder is wrong…

I'm totally down with the arrogant "morality is objective" viewpoint. However, I don't think it can be reasoned from first principles: I think "from first principles" gives a bad smell to almost any reasoning. I see knowledge as web-like in structure, not hierarchical, and I see moral ideas as belonging to a separate realm where they're supported by other moral ideas. (Consider that "gain" entails values, which are m…

If we were to leap 300 years into the future, I don't think it'd be very surprising what they look down on us for, presuming they've advanced in a logic-oriented direction and not, say, a relapse into purely religious doctrine, which is by no means a given to occur. We will certainly be condemned, at minimum, for our utterly inhumane treatment of animals, for our relentless exhaustion and destruction of natural resources, for our abuse of the scientific method to proclaim things as factual with studies that can't actually be replicated, and for much more.

Perhaps it would be surprising to some people who haven't thought much about it that we will likely be viewed poorly for wasting non-replenishable helium, necessary for advanced medical technology, on party balloons. But I don't think there is anything we do that we can't currently reason about being considered immoral for. I have absolutely zero doubt that George Washington would not be surprised to leap to 2025 and see someone condemning him for his slave ownership. There is nothing about living in the 1700s that would prevent him from reasoning that what he did was immoral, and indeed, many people in the 1700s did reason that.

Cultural adoption of morality moves significantly slower than reason about morality. This is because cultural adoption requires action. Humans will behave immorally even if they know their actions are immoral, for their own benefit. To counteract this requires coordinated group effort, which is an extremely slow process because, for example, convincing people that it's worth them risking death in a bloody war to stop other people from owning slaves, when they are not themselves ever at risk of being treated as a slave, is a very challenging task. That one participates in selfish, immoral actions for one's own benefit because one's society does not yet coerce one through collective threat of violence to behave morally does not absolve one of one's actions, which can already be reasoned through even if the collective will to enforce it does not yet exist.

Cultural adoption can also diverge from reason about morality completely, of course. This is because selfish people with power can use their power to enforce immoral values like absolute service to themselves, for their own benefit. If a society does not collectively overcome powerful individuals acting selfishly, then the culture's apparent morality will be warped in the service of what benefits a specific individual at the greater expense of society. However, even in such a state, people can and do reason about morality. Human history is a long, long tale of people defying immoral abuse of authority.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone builds on the work of others with help from others. It is why we have societies. Coalitions. In game theory a coalition is a group where the group's utility is greater than the sum of each member's utility. In other words: "we're stronger together". The problem with the self-made man myth is that it frames things as if it is shameful to have help. Having had help does not diminish your accomplishments. Hav…

> The problem with the self-made man myth Is that it's a complete straw man. It's not about not having help - every great achiever has had a figurative (sometimes literal) army of supporters behind them. Including those in history. What the "theory" actually posits seems trivially true - that the people who do super extraordinary things are extraordinary themselves. Whether it's talent, hard work, both, insanity, etc…

  > people who do super extraordinary things are extraordinary themselves
Nothing I said contradicts this. I even agree.

The problem is the inverse. You imply that people who do not do extraordinary things are not themselves extraordinary.

You can be extraordinary but shit out of luck. You can't rise to the top by just being the best, you also need and the right support. Take for example any startup. Good luck getting to scale without that. Eventually someone needs to take a chance on you.

This is something VCs even know. They invest broadly because a small percentage will be big hits. It's because things fall along a power distribution rather than a normal. The upside is unbounded. Most will lose, for many reasons, including just bad luck.

Or I'll let Picard say it

  > It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life
Its because random elements exist in life. It is not deterministic. If it was then VCs would exclusively invest in unicorns and take no losses.

Hindsight is useful but it's also easy to ignore subtle but critical variables

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1TCX90yALsI

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#116
post #89

> Andrew Jackson, the first president from the western territories and the only general to be elected president since George Washington Do they mean up to that point? Eisenhower was elected twice

Maybe awkwardly worded but that's implied by the phrasing "since"

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Re-thinking: you might also be saying that any celebration of even a long-dead king might really be jingoism. But then I think it's the jingoism itself that should be done away with, not the celebration. I think that we should celebrate people who advanced the society _on_ _purpose_ and not accidentally. Intentionality matters. Such people were rarely in positions of power, and I'm not aware of any "good kings". Pa…

OK, but what does advancing society on purpose look like, in the 800s? This is before the invention of the concept of progress. People could only aspire to be good in a way that equated loosely to "holy", which for Charlemagne seems to have included "scholastic", and I think that's as reasonably close to intentionally advancing society as you're going to get, at that time. You may prefer to venerate some Frankish mon…

I suggest reading the blog article about Beccaria. This is a great example.

> You may prefer to venerate some Frankish monk instead, who valued scholarship without also killing thousands of Saxons, but such a person would be less influential and would probably also approve of mass slaughter of pagans anyway.

You're not making a good argument about why we should venerate mass murderers. It basically boils down to "sometimes it results in good things".

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? I don't think authority is bad. What we're talking about isn't purely organizational, its economical. Of course we need leaders, and groups, and hierarchy. What we don't need is structures that take from peoples labor. Hierarchy can be an abstraction of group decision making and not a relationship to the products of labor (as it is now). Or do you think people will only do things if others…

Hierarchy is someone being at the top. Who really freed the slaves, Abraham Lincoln or all the people who elected him and then fought as solders to win the ensuing war? > Of course we need leaders, and groups, and hierarchy. What we don't need is structures that take from peoples labor. These are inherently synonyms for each other. As soon as you have anyone deciding how resources are allocated, they're taking them f…

Someone at the top isnt necessarily autocratic. To preside is not autocracy. Both of them freed the slaves.

> These are inherently synonyms for each other. As soon as you have anyone deciding how resources are allocated, they're taking them from whoever did the work to create them to begin with.

Nah, this is a very wrong take. If that were true what are portfolio managers doing? If they ran away with your money what would happen? Thats just a tiny little example.

There are millions of other examples where trust is employed without theft because the consequences matter.

> The best you can hope for is voluntary interactions...

Thats the deep problem with capitalism. It intends to be free but its own laws allow it to quickly be dominated by a few. And then the rest of us are supposed to trust the very-corruptible government to aid us? Capitalism REALLY is just oligopoly with extra steps. They know this and count on it.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I am not a historian. And I'm not gonna talk as if I know anything about how kings were viewed by the people. But in my mind kings can be "good" in the same way slave owners can be "good". Not that much, if any at all, contextually.

Why not compare them to their modern equivalents? They seem mostly the same as politicians today, except some actually cared about the people the ruled.

Nah, I think the rich are the kings, politicians are their court.

We have a bunch of little kings with a public court that theyre all trying to use for themselves.

IDK you but I think you cant get rich by being a good person. You actively have to ignore others' needs to focus on growth, to use people.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hierarchy is someone being at the top. Who really freed the slaves, Abraham Lincoln or all the people who elected him and then fought as solders to win the ensuing war? > Of course we need leaders, and groups, and hierarchy. What we don't need is structures that take from peoples labor. These are inherently synonyms for each other. As soon as you have anyone deciding how resources are allocated, they're taking them f…

Someone at the top isnt necessarily autocratic. To preside is not autocracy. Both of them freed the slaves. > These are inherently synonyms for each other. As soon as you have anyone deciding how resources are allocated, they're taking them from whoever did the work to create them to begin with. Nah, this is a very wrong take. If that were true what are portfolio managers doing? If they ran away with your money what…

> Someone at the top isnt necessarily autocratic. To preside is not autocracy.

This is sort of like saying that an oligopoly isn't a monopoly. Technically true but not a solution to the problem.

The only way to have a large central government but not have a small handful of people with an outsized amount of power would be to make the decisions through direct democracy, which is the thing that doesn't scale to organizations that size.

> Both of them freed the slaves.

But only one of them ever gets credit for it.

> If that were true what are portfolio managers doing? If they ran away with your money what would happen?

There are two ways to frame this.

The first is, you're in charge of your portfolio and the manager is just your employee, so the one at the top is you, but then you're only in charge of your own money and not anyone else's.

The second is, retail investors are unsophisticated and lack the understanding necessary to hold portfolio managers to account, so the managers engage in shell games to steal from the investors and buy themselves yachts and otherwise act against the investors' interests. In which case they're at the top and they're autocrats.

> Thats the deep problem with capitalism. It intends to be free but its own laws allow it to quickly be dominated by a few. And then the rest of us are supposed to trust the very-corruptible government to aid us?

Nearly by definition the only types of organizations are public (i.e. government) and private (i.e. capitalism, any organization that isn't a government). If you don't like private organizations, and the government is corrupt, then what are you even proposing?

The inherent problem here is that if you have centralized power structures of any kind, Machiavellian opportunists will try to capture them for their own ends. What you need is a structure of government that prevents that from happening. It's nominally supposed to look like a government constrained in what it can do (checks and balances and enumerated powers) to prevent it from having the authority to issue competition-destroying regulations in the event it gets captured, and therefore reduce the incentive to capture it. But still having the authority to enforce antitrust rules, to prevent the same thing from happening in private markets.

We don't actually have that. A lot of the original checks and balances were removed by populists in the early 20th century so now the US federal government is thoroughly captured and in turn issues thousands of competition-destroying regulations and doesn't meaningfully enforce antitrust laws. But the only thing to do is fix that, because what else is there?

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