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Why top firms fire good workers

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Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#111

Post by distances »

zwnow wrote: post #97
distances wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think unions would mean salary cuts? Unions don't set maximum salaries. You are absolutely free to negotiate your salary, raises, promotions, and so on. In the Nordics quite many tech workers are in unions. For most people it's perhaps just about habits and solidarity, but they do offer tangible benefits like free consultation and legal representation in a case of dispute with your employer.

Because companies are going to base salaries on collective agreements with the union which are usually lower compared to the salary high paying jobs have. At least that's how unions work in my country. Unions are powerful because they can call for protests and employees who are in a union cant get laid off due to joining the protest. But its not worth if the job already has way better working conditions than like 80%…

I don't think your salary negotiation position is diminished by having some kind of a lower bound. Skilled employees should be able to get a higher salary if the employers value their skills, and that does happen all the time also in countries with strong unions, like those Nordics.

Even without unions Europe wouldn't have US tech salary levels, those numbers come from other market dynamics.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#112

Post by vincnetas »

zwnow wrote: post #97
distances wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think unions would mean salary cuts? Unions don't set maximum salaries. You are absolutely free to negotiate your salary, raises, promotions, and so on. In the Nordics quite many tech workers are in unions. For most people it's perhaps just about habits and solidarity, but they do offer tangible benefits like free consultation and legal representation in a case of dispute with your employer.

Because companies are going to base salaries on collective agreements with the union which are usually lower compared to the salary high paying jobs have. At least that's how unions work in my country. Unions are powerful because they can call for protests and employees who are in a union cant get laid off due to joining the protest. But its not worth if the job already has way better working conditions than like 80%…

"unions dont set max salaries" you are free to negotiate better salary. fact that union had agreed with company on minimum salary, does not change anything for you. yes the company can say "hey you asking too much, we talked with unions" but company can say the same either way "hey you asking too much, market is tough". so unions just the lower bar.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#113

Post by kamaal »

windex wrote: post #19

The method used in all the big4s in India is this: You join and do well as usual. Your credit is shared by those above you. You continue to do well, your manager gets promoted or you get a manager who needs a promotion and needs the credit you generate. He gets promoted, aggregates your good work and shows it as his. You then get sidelined, PIPed, or leave in disgust. It's political and I have begun to strongly belie…

The deal about India is this.

Its a brutal zero/negative sum game, at a country level, but plays out in every individual's life, and at a punishing pace, intensity and frequency.

Anybody who doesn't prioritise their self interests at any and all costs, suffers.

Just stubbornly refuse to do a thing that isn't beneficial to you. You will come out fine.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#114

Post by baq »

lynx97 wrote: post #76
palmotea wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech attracts the radical independent types. No. I think it's a combination of: 1) HN being associated with a startup incubator, and thus attracting a large contingent of people who see themselves as the boss doing this, not the workers affected; 2) tech attracts a certain kind of gullible person who's easily seduced by tidy little systems like the pop-capitalism of libertarian tracts; and 3) tech workers (until re…

Your point 2 is such a condescending take. I read it as: "Everyone who does not think the same way as I do is gullible and has been seduced, because I am obviously right and they must be weak." This kind behaviour convinces me even more that I dont really trust union people.

If you felt personally attacked you’ve let your biases win over rational thought. Tech obviously does attract libertarians (see bitcoin maxis for a single example of a significant cohort). Libertarianism is also blind towards the obvious failure mode of an organized group overpowering the egoistic as a virtue libertarians. (Think barbarians… or HR.)

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#115

Post by baq »

namlem wrote: post #104
idiotsecant wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whatever reason collective bargaining is wildly unpopular on HN, which is ironic because tech workers are exactly who should be organizing their labor.

Unions often end up decreasing productivity due to added bureaucracy, leading to ultimately worse compensation in the long run.

Let’s talk about how HR increases productivity

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#116

Post by tarsinge »

lynx97 wrote: post #76
palmotea wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech attracts the radical independent types. No. I think it's a combination of: 1) HN being associated with a startup incubator, and thus attracting a large contingent of people who see themselves as the boss doing this, not the workers affected; 2) tech attracts a certain kind of gullible person who's easily seduced by tidy little systems like the pop-capitalism of libertarian tracts; and 3) tech workers (until re…

Your point 2 is such a condescending take. I read it as: "Everyone who does not think the same way as I do is gullible and has been seduced, because I am obviously right and they must be weak." This kind behaviour convinces me even more that I dont really trust union people.

To me (and it’s my personal experience) I read it as tech people have a bias for systemic thinking, and usually lack skills and/or experience in human social dynamics, especially when young, which makes laissez faire capitalism / libertarianism attractive. I’m a bit on the spectrum and to me it has a video game like quality (e.g. humans that are robot like rational actors) that was appealing and reassuring when trying to make sense of the world.

In short don’t find it condescending to say a bias exists, independently of the agreement with the political line of thinking.

In fact when I was younger I was condescending the other way: surely if you are not into libertarianism your systemic thinking must be limited.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#117

Post by kamaal »

SilverElfin wrote: post #50
SanjayMehta wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most CEOs and VPs in these companies are nepotistic and political. They are happy to take credit but will never allow their direct reports to become a threat to them. In general the structure looks like this CEO VP (usually a family member or a "chamcha" literally spoon, but means sycophant.) Directors (all yes-men chamchas) Worker bees Not very different from most companies, in my experience.

Is sycophancy different there? I think in many places employees often praise their managers and agree with everything because it’s a survival strategy. Or maybe a misplaced hope to get recognized that way. I assume that’s all this is too?

In India loyalties run deep. It can come along the lines of religion, region, caste, family, color, class etc.

Many times novices to this game, work mad hours, only to realise a year or two down the lane, some guy who practically did no work but comes from the same state your manager does, is now promoted above you.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#119

Post by Popeyes »

baq wrote: post #78
idiotsecant wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whatever reason collective bargaining is wildly unpopular on HN, which is ironic because tech workers are exactly who should be organizing their labor.

Most everyone is a temporarily embarrassed unicorn founder around here.

Just one line of code away from being an alpha tech bro with Elon's number on their phone.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#120

Post by alkonaut »

ljf wrote: post #103
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when has a union ever stopped a multinational company from just closing shop and opening up overseas? If a company making physical things can do it, how hard do you think it would be for a software company?

While they cannot stop something like that (a Union never gets to control the business), they can at least negotiate good terms for the departing employees, and help ensure everything is in order.

> a Union never gets to control the business

This varies. e.g. Sweden: if there are over 25 employees, the union gets a seat in the board.

https://bolagsverket.se/en/foretag/aktiebolag/startaaktiebol...

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