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What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

theatlantic.com

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Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#111
post #36
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war on admissions testing is one of the worst education trends. I couldn’t believe it when it was first proposed, but I was even more shocked when the trend started to spread. It does appear to be reversing a little bit in some places as schools realize they were fooled by people pushing ideology over data and results, but it’s going to take a while. For those who aren’t in the loop: There’s an ideological push t…

Kurt Vonnegut saw this trend emerging back in 1961: https://archive.org/stream/HarrisonBergeron/Harrison%20Berge...

There's a charming TV movie adaptation of this story.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#112

".....In 2020, system leaders voted to phase standardized-test scores out of admissions decisions. They argued that the tests worsened racial divides and unfairly privileged wealthy students. But SAT and ACT scores are the most reliable predictors of a student’s math ability, the report found...."

I have never met a single person who wanted to learn advanced mathematics who was prevented from doing this by not getting into the college of their choice, and I know a lot of mathematicians. Do you genuinely believe that people who get an 800 on the math portion of the SATs (which is actually a pretty large number of people) are struggling to get admission to university at all ?

The mathematicians I know wish the were introduced to more material when they were younger so they could spend more time internalizing different concepts before being forced to specialize by the demands of a PhD.

The more scientifically minded people I know wish they were introduced to more mathematical concepts when they were younger so they could feel more able applying more sophisticated models to their problem domain.

Having a pipeline of somewhat mathematically able citizens is crucial to having an advanced economy. I don’t think the preceding statement is remotely controversial.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#113

The UCSD report shows some of the questions they asked incoming students. 39% got this right: Round the number 374518 to the nearest 100 34% got this right: Find 13/16 ÷ 2. 2% got this right: If a=-2 and b=-3, evaluate ab² - a/b https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio... page 49

To be fair, the ÷ symbol for division must be abolished.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#114

The UCSD report shows some of the questions they asked incoming students. 39% got this right: Round the number 374518 to the nearest 100 34% got this right: Find 13/16 ÷ 2. 2% got this right: If a=-2 and b=-3, evaluate ab² - a/b https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio... page 49

A shocking number of Americans are also functionally illiterate. I think 21% or about 41 million Muricans.

54% of Americans read below a 6th grade level.

We don't need to know how to do these things when we can just have someone/something do it for us.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#115
post #89
post #48

> “Who is going to trust somebody who got a degree in airline engineering who doesn’t know how to think through a problem without a computer telling them the answer?” Years ago when I was working in education (Canadian public schools) our school board had a conference ahead of the school year. The keynote was an inclusive-ed researcher / consultant / speaker who told an anecdote of how they had successfully lobbied f…

To be fair no one ever takes a moment to show you what the math is useful for. You're just expected to learn it because it's said to be important.

I'm not sure why this is down-voted. Nearly every single teacher I had from elementary though high school, when asked what was the usefulness of the math lesson, said that we would need it when we got to the next level of education. Elementary teachers said we would need it in middle school. Middle school teachers said we would need it in high school. High school teachers said we would need it in college. By college you learned to stop asking questions.

I'm lucky I enjoyed math and science, but I'm not surprised that people who don't enjoy it think it isn't going to be useful to them. It's very much one of the things that if you don't know how to apply it, you won't find the places to apply it, so you end up thinking it has no use.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#116

What if USA would stop treating education like a business - customer paid for degree, customer gets the degree no matter if customer has essential knowledge for the degree?

What if we publicly acknowledged it's a key infrastructure to our economy, government, and society?

Wait ... you can't mean ... and pay for it? Am I in a bad dream? Or perhaps a really good one?

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#117
post #107

The UCSD report shows some of the questions they asked incoming students. 39% got this right: Round the number 374518 to the nearest 100 34% got this right: Find 13/16 ÷ 2. 2% got this right: If a=-2 and b=-3, evaluate ab² - a/b https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio... page 49

To clarify, these are percentages for the sample of students taking the remedial Math 2 class, not generally. Two percent is still crazy low though, that's practically nothing.

A yep that's a critical piece of information.

For context, "In the 2025 incoming class, this group constitutes roughly one-eighth of our entire entering cohort."

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#118

What if USA would stop treating education like a business - customer paid for degree, customer gets the degree no matter if customer has essential knowledge for the degree?

You're describing a terrible business, where you pay for something worthless.

If that's the college business model today, it won't survive for long.

Colleges that give you valuable skills for your money should keep doing well though.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#119

We need to redefine math as procedural logic (like imperative programming for humans). That way, we can defend the study of mathematics as a form of discipline for the human mind that has benefits beyond the knowledge gained. The meta-process for solving any mathematical problem is the same as any other form of project management. Or maybe we should first try to teach kids the value of project management & then try t…

the uncurious are being selected against. its ok

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#120
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a publicly traded company that is enslaved to it's investors, growth, profit and quarterly reporting.

The more time passes the more I hate publicly traded companies. I feel like the stock market rots companies.

The East India Company set the template for joint-stock corporations, and the model was basically a weaponized extension of post-Norman politics. Its leadership acted like a portable aristocracy. Accountable only upward to investors and the Crown never to the people they ruled. Their mandate was extraction, not participation. Communist regimes are always pointed out, but that pure Free Markets look like the East India company is never highlighted.

That mindset carried straight into corporate governance. Joint-stock companies inherited a Norman-style hierarchy where a self-defined ruling stratum treats populations as revenue sources, not stakeholders. Legitimacy comes from charter and capital (today: job/founder title and investment), not from any connection to the community affected.

In Norman social architecture you have a ruling stratum that views itself as distinct from and superior to the alien conquered population under it, bound by obligation only to peers and superiors, not to the commons. The joint-stock corporation inherited that same operating philosophy. The “company” wasn’t conceived as part of society; it was a chartered power structure hovering above society. Local populations are revenue sources, not stakeholders. Accountability runs up the hierarchy, not down. Legitimacy comes from charter (now job title/founder title) and capital, not community integration. The company's goal is to be a mini Norman conqueror of it's specific market. The logic of Norman style extraction from a conquered people, rather than participation/obligation/upholding social norms, sits at its core. Norman style extraction first, everything else second.

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