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The time has finally come for geothermal energy

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Re: The time has finally come for geothermal energy

#111

Post by cbmuser »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #22
yawaramin wrote: post #19

It's nuclear fission. It's always been nuclear fission (well, at least since the '50s) and it will continue to be until we commercialize fusion reactors. Everything else is nice to have but it's like NIH syndrome.

Geothermal is fission, and wind, solar, and batteries are fusion at a distance. In both cases, the failure scenarios are benign vs traditional fission generation. It's fine to keep striving for fusion humans control, but the problem (global electrification and transition to low carbon generation) is already solved with the tech we have today. It took the world 68 years to achieve the first 1TW of solar PV. The next 1…

Look at Electricity Maps and realize that France is the only large industrial country where electricity generation is permanently carbon-free and cheap.

https://particulier.edf.fr/content/dam/2-Actifs/Documents/Of...

Re: The time has finally come for geothermal energy

#112

Post by jamescrowley »

iso1631 wrote: post #106
bryanlarsen wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inverters and batteries (or any other DC source) are also very good at doing this.

Not grid following inverters, or "any DC source", as we saw in Spain in Summer

Nothing to do with the blackout in Spain - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-caused-iberian-... - voltage surge and various thermal power generators failing to provide the voltage correction services they were being paid for

But yes, grid following alone does not provided the required stability - synthetic inertia etc needed

Re: The time has finally come for geothermal energy

#113

Post by euroderf »

rconti wrote: post #66

Iceland's hot water was a culture shock to me in 2 ways: 1. The host at our apartment encouraged us to leave the windows cracked and the heat on for good air circulation. 2. The hot water (at the taps) has a sulfer smell, because it's (also) piped geothermal water. My host explained they also had a water heater upstairs in their home because they preferred "heated cold water" over "hot water", which is a funny distin…

When heating is dirt (heh) cheap, it doesn't cost much to do things like put big hot tubs and heated pools outdoors, like they do in Reykjaviks swim halls. It's really nice.

Re: The time has finally come for geothermal energy

#114

Post by cbmuser »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #39
yawaramin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Failure scenario in modern fission reactors is also benign. Reactors are designed to lock down to prevent any leaks. We deploy solar PV capacity, this doesn't mean we actually get that much power from the deployments. Nuclear fission provides reliable, baseload power, and doesn't require huge battery arrays to compensate for the sun setting or winds calming.

Enough renewables are deployed annually to replace the global nuclear fission fleet, year after year, even when accounting for capacity factor derating (to make a like for like comparison). The race is over, and renewables (with batteries) won. If you can find someone unsophisticated to invest in a fission reactor that takes billions of dollars and 10-15 years to build, more power to you. There will be no need for it…

»Enough renewables are deployed annually to replace the global nuclear fission fleet, year after year, even when accounting for capacity factor derating (to make a like for like comparison).«

Wind and solar do not replace conventional power plants and never will.

Heck, Germany tried that on the small island of Pellworm and failed and yet some people think this will work out for the whole country.

It does not work.

Re: The time has finally come for geothermal energy

#115

Post by iso1631 »

roadside_picnic wrote: post #75
hodgehog11 wrote: post #3

I've always been curious why a cost-effective widespread implementation of geothermal energy has never been considered a holy grail of energy production, at least not in the public debate. Much of the discussion is so focussed on nuclear fusion, which seems so much harder and less likely to be reliable.

> a holy grail of energy production Since you're comparing it to nuclear, I'm assuming you mean electricity production here, not energy production? It's always worth remembering that electricity only accounts for ~20% of global energy consumption (in the US it's closer to 33%). I suspect people confuse these two because in a residential context electricity plays a huge part of our energy usage, but as a whole it's a…

At home I use 15,000kWh of oil for heating each year (about 10kWh per litre, 1500 litres), and 8,000kWh of electricity (we use a lot more than the average household). For driving that's another 5000kWh a year if at 4 miles per kWh.

So even in a residential context, electricity is only about 1/4 of the demand. Across the whole country it's less than 300TWh out of 1500TWh, under 20%.

That excludes "imported energy" though, as in goods which used energy to make but were then imported.

Re: The time has finally come for geothermal energy

#116

Post by toomuchtodo »

cbmuser wrote: post #111
toomuchtodo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geothermal is fission, and wind, solar, and batteries are fusion at a distance. In both cases, the failure scenarios are benign vs traditional fission generation. It's fine to keep striving for fusion humans control, but the problem (global electrification and transition to low carbon generation) is already solved with the tech we have today. It took the world 68 years to achieve the first 1TW of solar PV. The next 1…

Look at Electricity Maps and realize that France is the only large industrial country where electricity generation is permanently carbon-free and cheap. https://particulier.edf.fr/content/dam/2-Actifs/Documents/Of...

Yes, but unfortunately that is because it is coasting on decades old labor and capital investment that will not be made again. It is not permanent, as it will cost tens of billions of euros to continue to operate those generators reaching the end of their service life.

Re: The time has finally come for geothermal energy

#117

Post by jamescrowley »

cbmuser wrote: post #108
bluGill wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand the point though. Sure there is always 5GW of demand - but we don't need generation that always supply 5GW cheap since wind/solar is much cheaper for base load. What we need is non-base load generation that can jump in at a moment's notice when needed because wind/solar isn't enough. Previously we would use those peak plants from when there was 6GW of demand (or whatever), but now between those peak…

We’re trying that in Germany while we’re still heavily dependent on coal while our electricity prices are twice as much compared to France. I’m sorry, but wind and solar may be cheap, but they don’t provide cheap electricity 24/7.

which is why dispatchable power is required - not coal?

Re: The time has finally come for geothermal energy

#118

Post by cbmuser »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #56
yawaramin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can find someone unsophisticated to invest in a fission reactor that takes billions of dollars and 10-15 years to build Unsophisticated investors like the Chinese government? 'Nearly every Chinese nuclear project that has entered service since 2010 has achieved construction in 7 years or less.' https://thebreakthrough.org/issues/energy/chinas-impressive-...

They dabble in nuclear, but it is not their focus. China can do what the developed world cannot because they are a command economy with less expensive labor, which will only last for a bit longer due to their structural demographics. Unless the developed world no longer has labor regulations, developed world wages, and capital based allocation systems, my statement stands with regards to investment. If capital and la…

»Your citation comes from an organization with pro nuclear bias.«

Go and throw all your money into renewables stocks and ETFs if you’re so convinced.

I bet you’re not doing that because you realize that the industry isn’t doing well and it’s nuclear power nowadays where all the money goes.

Re: The time has finally come for geothermal energy

#119

Post by cbmuser »

nagisa wrote: post #70
yawaramin wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If France–a country known for its strong labour laws and unions–could transition to nuclear in the '70s, any Western country can do it. Even if the Western world lags behind due to labour regulations, the cost still pays off in the long run due to overall less complex infrastructure and stable, AC baseload power. You are thinking only about the cost of building. What about the cost of maintaining all that infrastruct…

The options in the '70s were much different from those of today. And for France specifically what they have underground (lots of uranium, no oil, no gas & no coal) strongly suggested exactly one way forward.

Wind and solar existed in the 70s as well.

Plus, Germany invested 500 billion Euros in its energy transition and is STILL heavily dependent on coal.

Re: The time has finally come for geothermal energy

#120

Post by iSnow »

iso1631 wrote: post #98
jmward01 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right answer is 'yes to all the above'. Yes, we need solar. Yes, we need wind. Yes, we need batteries and, yes, we should be looking at geothermal. Solar has shown us, again, how artificially holding back a technology for decades has massive costs. Investing a few billion into geothermal right now is cheap and can only lead to a more durable energy infrastructure in the future. There are all sorts of benefits to…

One thing which is needed too is spinning load, the grid depends on having enough inertia to maintain the frequency. Flywheels I assume would do that.

This is being done and it's called synthetic inertia. Just with capacitors and batteries instead of spinning motors.
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