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Android/Linux Dual Boot

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Re: Android/Linux Dual Boot

#111

Post by AdmiralAsshat »

embedding-shape wrote: post #95
estimator7292 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language matters, so don't let google turn sideloading into a dirty word. It was called sideloading before Google was even founded.

My first encounter with "sideloading" I think was loading up a MP3 player with music, for some reason that was called "sideloading" by some people. In that case, "sideloading" was just transferring basically, nothing about installing. But once Android appeared, and there was one Google-approved way of installing applications (Google Store) and one way of installing directly from .apk after enabling "Unknown Sources",…

> My first encounter with "sideloading" I think was loading up a MP3 player with music, for some reason that was called "sideloading" by some people. In that case, "sideloading" was just transferring basically, nothing about installing.

Probably influenced by the original iPod, which really wanted you to sync your iPod with your iTunes library (conveniently directing you to purchase all of your music from Apple's platform). "Sideloading" referred to the few extra steps to get your computer to simply expose the iPod as a removable storage device and drag-and-drop your mp3s over that way.

It wouldn't have made sense in the context of other mp3 players, because for many of the ones I remember (like my Creative Zen Touch), that was the only way to add the mp3s. I don't think Creative even supplied a front-end media manager...or if they did, I never bothered installing it.

Re: Android/Linux Dual Boot

#112

Post by devsda »

cbolton wrote: post #82
devsda wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like hacking, sideloading is now a loaded & misunderstood term. It is considered as something only nerds or bad actors do. Let's just call it alternate install.

It's bypassing the usual channel for app installations, so the term is technically fitting and the loaded meaning is also appropriate since it's mostly used by nerds (maybe too strong a word) and bad actors. There are legitimate uses of sideloading for regular users, for example if you have solar panels that work with a Huawei app, they can't put it on the Play store because of US sanctions. But that's not Google's f…

> that does mean the app is more risky since it's not monitored by Google.

Why is Google the arbitrator of risk here ?

As a user I'm capable of assessing the risk directly or indirectly by delegating that responsibility to another store or another program a.k.a anti-virus programs, its my choice in the end.

I want Google to build software like Windows Defender and allow others to build similar software. I want the ability to chose my security provider or not have one. I don't want Google to play nanny.

Re: Android/Linux Dual Boot

#113

Post by cbolton »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #109
cbolton wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bypassing the usual channel for app installations, so the term is technically fitting and the loaded meaning is also appropriate since it's mostly used by nerds (maybe too strong a word) and bad actors. There are legitimate uses of sideloading for regular users, for example if you have solar panels that work with a Huawei app, they can't put it on the Play store because of US sanctions. But that's not Google's f…

Just because its the channel that google would prefer you use doesn't mean its "the usual channel". What counts as "usual" is user specific. I don't even have google play installed on my Android phone.

True, I'm speaking of the situation for the crushing majority of users (outside China I guess), not for literally every user.

Re: Android/Linux Dual Boot

#114

Post by sschueller »

hexagonwin wrote: post #58
dotancohen wrote: post #2

The wiki has instructions for the N900! Not everything works, but it appears to be a work in progress.

For the N900, Maemo Leste https://maemo-leste.github.io/ > would be a good choice, if not even better.

Nice, I still have my N900 but my provider here (Swisscom Switzerland) is killing 3G by the end of the year...

Re: Android/Linux Dual Boot

#115

Post by cbolton »

devsda wrote: post #112
cbolton wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bypassing the usual channel for app installations, so the term is technically fitting and the loaded meaning is also appropriate since it's mostly used by nerds (maybe too strong a word) and bad actors. There are legitimate uses of sideloading for regular users, for example if you have solar panels that work with a Huawei app, they can't put it on the Play store because of US sanctions. But that's not Google's f…

> that does mean the app is more risky since it's not monitored by Google. Why is Google the arbitrator of risk here ? As a user I'm capable of assessing the risk directly or indirectly by delegating that responsibility to another store or another program a.k.a anti-virus programs, its my choice in the end. I want Google to build software like Windows Defender and allow others to build similar software. I want the ab…

> Why is Google the arbitrator of risk here ?

Because they do the monitoring and take some responsibility? I'm just comparing "install from the Play store" with "install some apk from wherever". If you bring additional context/knowledge of course it makes a difference.

Re: Android/Linux Dual Boot

#116

Post by realusername »

palata wrote: post #94
realusername wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can run Android apps then you need the same behavior as AOSP or I'm missing something? If you don't rebase from AOSP, the apps won't run pretty quickly.

I actually wonder: if Google stopped pushing to AOSP and "the community" had to fork... the whole Android SDK/NDK is not open source, so I wonder if AOSP could survive at all without Google, even though it is open source.

I think if Google would stop pushing AOSP, there's a very high risk for Google that a consortium of manufacturers would continue themselves as they need it and they would lose control.

Re: Android/Linux Dual Boot

#117

Post by embedding-shape »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #111
embedding-shape wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first encounter with "sideloading" I think was loading up a MP3 player with music, for some reason that was called "sideloading" by some people. In that case, "sideloading" was just transferring basically, nothing about installing. But once Android appeared, and there was one Google-approved way of installing applications (Google Store) and one way of installing directly from .apk after enabling "Unknown Sources",…

> My first encounter with "sideloading" I think was loading up a MP3 player with music, for some reason that was called "sideloading" by some people. In that case, "sideloading" was just transferring basically, nothing about installing. Probably influenced by the original iPod, which really wanted you to sync your iPod with your iTunes library (conveniently directing you to purchase all of your music from Apple's pla…

Yeah, people in my circles and also people on the internet would refer to it as "sideloading" even though none of us were using iPods (I think this was all before the iPod actually, but my memory is a bit hazy), just copy-paste the files with explorer.exe over to the built-in MP3 player storage, people calling it "sideloading".

Re: Android/Linux Dual Boot

#118

Post by seba_dos1 »

tom_alexander wrote: post #74
seba_dos1 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the case on Android either and it could be subjected to a XZ-like backdoor just as anything else.

Could you be more specific on how to circumvent the android permission model + sandbox? So far I have only thought of two ways an XZ-like backdoor could circumvent that: 1. By being baked into the OS itself, which is unavoidable since the OS is the thing providing the sandboxing + security model. It still massively reduces the attack surface. 2. By being run through the android debug bridge, which is far from normal…

The defining aspect of the XZ backdoor was that it was baked into the OS itself, being linked into memory space by about half of the system and activated by being packaged in a specific way in a specific distribution. If you wanted to ignore 1), you would have to choose a different example.

If you want to confine yourself in a sandbox, feel free to do it. The past decades have demonstrated that it's only necessary for some specific threat models.

Re: Android/Linux Dual Boot

#119

Post by palata »

realusername wrote: post #116
palata wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually wonder: if Google stopped pushing to AOSP and "the community" had to fork... the whole Android SDK/NDK is not open source, so I wonder if AOSP could survive at all without Google, even though it is open source.

I think if Google would stop pushing AOSP, there's a very high risk for Google that a consortium of manufacturers would continue themselves as they need it and they would lose control.

Would they, though? Like Huawei forked for a while, and then they made their proprietary HarmonyOS.

For a while I thought it was a missed opportunity to compete on a hard fork, but then I realised that Huawei probably cannot fork the Android SDK/NDK because it's not open source.

Re: Android/Linux Dual Boot

#120

Post by palata »

m4rtink wrote: post #101
charcircuit wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in regards to the security model, it is decades out of date. For example any app can listen to your microphone and spy on you at anytime. Programs can act as ransomeware or destroy all of your files. Stealers can steal your login credentials and access tokens for all your sites including banking ones.

Well, isn't the idea that you use apps compiled from source by distro maintainers, which are separate from the upstream maintainers ? Frankly, I still trust this model much more than black box Android apps automatically updating in the background, sending tons of telemetry and demanding random permissions so they can spy on you. Not to mention the security model preventing many useful things from working properly (tr…

> Frankly, I still trust this model much more than black box Android apps automatically updating in the background, sending tons of telemetry and demanding random permissions so they can spy on you.

You're comparing a security model to... apps? I don't see how that makes sense.

Apps you install on Linux can do more than apps you install on Android, period. That's part of the security model.

Of course I like that I am an admin on my computer, but I don't need that on my phone. And one can enable root on Android and still keep the apps sandboxed...

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