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Dark Pattern Games

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Re: Dark Pattern Games

#111

Post by [deleted] »

ljm wrote: post #109
symbogra wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for doing this! Years of grinding in Diablo 2 and reading about the psychology of intermittent rewards has made me able to see through any game with a grinding mechanic and not play it. So naming and explaining the dark pattern can help.

I don't think anything has pushed me towards low-key single player indie gaming more than the industry's relentless endeavour to blur the lines between gaming and gambling. Multiplayer? I loved the asymmetrical co-op ones like It Takes Two, The Past Within, Tick Tock: A Tale For Two. Give me an experience that is thoughtful and enjoyable over one that is intended to frustrate any day. The Seance of Black Manor, The R…

[deleted]

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#112

Post by Hikikomori »

parineum wrote: post #78
p1necone wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that, but some of the games that people point at as having harmful monetization have basically the same system of only selling cosmetic items that don't give you an advantage (e.g. Fortnite). And PoE's stash tabs straddle that line a bit. As far as I can tell the main difference is a younger demographic and being more pop culture adjacent. I don't think that should affect whether you consider it "bad" monetiz…

> And PoE's stash tabs straddle that line a bit. They don't straddle any lines, they're well beyond it. Stash tabs are de facto required for trade. One can, technically, play without trade and complete all the game content but the ones actually capable of that are putting in tons of hours and they will definitely use extra stash space. There isn't really a target player that plays POE for free aside from those that a…

You can trade via trade chat. But yeah most people will buy trade and currency tables just because it saves so much time.

But it's certainly not required for ssf, you can complete the game without it.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#113

Post by YurgenJurgensen »

protocolture wrote: post #35
swi wrote: post #22

Chris Wilson released a video on this topic yesterday - "Dark Patterns: Are Your Games Playing You?". He has an interesting perspective having been the lead of Path of Exile. A free to play, decade long, popular, action role playing game. While opinions vary on the correct use of these patterns, the video is a helpful and easy to digest, reminder of them. The video description contains additional links. --- "Dark Pat…

PoE seems to be an outlier, having probably the softest freemium model in existence. I dont recall having been even slightly tempted to spend money in that game.

There’s always a few people, saying this whenever the topic comes up, but as always, smarks are still marks. They want you to think you’re getting one over the system, because you’ll either cave, or advertise the game to someone who does. Even if you don’t, the marginal cost to them is essentially zero.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#114

Post by YurgenJurgensen »

smusamashah wrote: post #20

It does not look like all patterns described here are meant to be taken as a rule. If your game don't have any of the patterns this website suggests, it won't automatically become a good game. Grind or collecting items is suggested as a dark pattern. Dead cells is an amazing game and it has both of these. Most rogue lites use these both patterns heavily. I don't see grinding as a hard no. I don't mind repeating if ga…

Most roguelites use those patterns because they are fundamentally linked to slot machines. They may not be as predatory as money sinks, but they’re optimised to be time sinks as a method of promotion via word-of-mouth, streaming or activity indicators on social media.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#115

Post by donatj »

The Battle Pass in Fortnite having actual V-Bucks in it, the currency you spend to buy the pass, is some sort of psychological manipulation I don't fully understand. It works on me. Something about the idea that if I play enough I'll get most(?) of my money back really tickles my brain in the right way to keep me playing.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#116

Post by YurgenJurgensen »

thrwaway55 wrote: post #26
charcircuit wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what they would want to see is the cards all be free. That way powercreep does not make a purchase less valuable, does not make people gamble for cards they want, and not give an advantage to people who want to spend more money to get good cards.

I agree that is what it would take to get a high score on their site but I think it's an unrealistic expectation to suggest that the developer should be on the hook indefinitely for content. Each card game set is functionally a new game with some costs amortized thanks to it's previous sets. We have seen the forever sticker price in mega hit indies ala Stardew Valley or Terraria but I don't think that is really healt…

Why should developers be on the hook indefinitely for content? Why can’t they just make a good game and sell it? If a game needs continuous ‘content updates’ to remain good, it simply wasn’t meant to be played forever. Not all games are.

Your argument seems to be “won’t someone please think of the poor defenseless billion-dollar international megacorporations?”.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#117

Post by redbell »

These patterns do really take away the feeling of joy, fun and sense of accomplishment of playing games and replace them with pain, stress, fear and probably, every negative feeling you might think of. It's sad to witness the tragic shift from "pay to play" to "pay to win".

You might be interested to watch this video entitled Let’s go whaling: Tricks for monetising mobile game players with free-to-play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4 , which has been referenced by many YouTube analysis, and for good reason.

Also, this paper was a nice read for me: Predatory monetization schemes in video games and internet gaming disorder (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325479259_Predatory...)

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#118

Post by gruez »

donatj wrote: post #115

The Battle Pass in Fortnite having actual V-Bucks in it, the currency you spend to buy the pass, is some sort of psychological manipulation I don't fully understand. It works on me. Something about the idea that if I play enough I'll get most(?) of my money back really tickles my brain in the right way to keep me playing.

Fortnite's battlepass system is probably one the less manipulative monetization scheme out there. There's no benefit to buying the battlepass in advance (other than getting access to skins sooner), so you can just wait until you've unlocked everything you want, before buying the battlepass. This avoids the feeling of sunk cost and that you "have to" play the game to "get your money's worth" entirely.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#120

Post by knollimar »

YurgenJurgensen wrote: post #114
smusamashah wrote: post #20

It does not look like all patterns described here are meant to be taken as a rule. If your game don't have any of the patterns this website suggests, it won't automatically become a good game. Grind or collecting items is suggested as a dark pattern. Dead cells is an amazing game and it has both of these. Most rogue lites use these both patterns heavily. I don't see grinding as a hard no. I don't mind repeating if ga…

Most roguelites use those patterns because they are fundamentally linked to slot machines. They may not be as predatory as money sinks, but they’re optimised to be time sinks as a method of promotion via word-of-mouth, streaming or activity indicators on social media.

I don't think that's true that they use them because they're linked to slot machines. Sometimes variance just adds variety, which is valuabke in itself.

I also don't agree if you're implying this optimization is intentional. It's often just a way to make the game longer. People don't like a game they complete quickly

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