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Where do the children play?

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111–120 of 264 posts

Re: Where do the children play?

#111

Yeah well, we have one kid, and we're too old to have another. He's the only grandchild on both sides of the family. He has no cousins, first or second. That's apparently the new normal in many countries. Of course he's going to live a sheltered life! It's easy to tell parents to let their kids roam free, but that advice is to copy the behaviour of parents that had ten kids. I said "had", because on average, two of t…

> I said "had", because on average, two of them will survive to adulthood and procreation. That's natural. That's the way things were for our species for megayears. Where are you getting that stat? For the majority of human history the childhood mortality rate has hovered around 50% not 80%. Back in the second century BC if you had 10 children you expected half of them to reach adulthood. In addition I can't find spe…

> Where are you getting that stat?

Basic population dynamics. For a population to remain steady, a breeding pair can only have on average two surviving children that procreate themselves.

If you want to get into the weeds, there's obviously some "fudge factors" that bring this a little bit up above two.

1. Not every kid that survives to adulthood will go on to procreate themselves, so the remainder need slightly more than two to make up the slack.

2. During periods of population growth, the average survivorship has to be higher.

3. The percentage surviving depends on how many were born per family to begin with. I didn't state a percentage, I said two. Okay, fine 2.4 or whatever, but not a fraction, that "depends" on too many variables.

> For the majority of human history the childhood mortality rate has hovered around 50% not 80%.

RECORDED history, which is a short blip in our evolutionary history as a species. I said megayears, a.k.a.: millions of years, for most of which we have scant evidence. Extrapolating from our wild animal cousins and just observing how these "uncontacted" tribes live, it's pretty obvious that for 99% of the time we could be called human, we had five+ kids per couple, and ten+ wasn't uncommon... of which two-point-something survived.

That's just the way it is, for essentially all species. It has to be, otherwise populations would explode in numbers until it's standing room only for the entire surface planet.

PS: Next time you watch some BBC documentary about some species giving birth to hundreds of offspring, well... now you know. They didn't make it. Certainly, statistically, most of them must not have, because if they could and did, then that species would have their population numbers grow astronomically fast!

PPS: You hand-waved away a 50% loss rate as if it's a detail. That in no way undermines my argument that if you have an only child, or even two or three, that losing half of them is not considered acceptable parenting in this day and age. There is absolutely no way anyone I know would trade half of their children so that they can have a wild, carefree, and unsupervised childhood like "nature intended"!

Re: Where do the children play?

#112
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but no. You shouldn't be running in crowded areas like food courts (or indoor areas not specifically created for athletics), and playing smug semantic arguments like that doesn't help. The kids aren't running because they're unable to go outside. They're running because no one's been enforcing that they act within the standards of basic decency. Kids should be screaming and singing sometimes, but you wouldn't…

> You shouldn't be running in crowded areas like food courts (or indoor areas not specifically created for athletics) I guess this is a cultural thing, i.e. what is expected of kids. Among my age-group in Eastern Europe (25-30 y/o), we joke around that our parents didn't let us stay in home, which has a lot of truth to it. Once we were out in the city, they didn't even have a idea where we went, and we didn't have mo…

And in Eastern Europe 25-30 years ago, other adults would have no problem yelling at you to behave in their own language/words.

Very much different than today where people mostly mind their own business and judge in silence.

I'm good with the former, it's inline with "It takes a village".

Re: Where do the children play?

#113
post #56
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same phone addiction in Europe as elsewhere. No way to fight addictive stuff. Most parents don’t even try or care. Add tragic demographics and 8-12 year olds are all alone with their phones. Let’s talk about special school system here in Bavaria (Germany). Kids from specific area go to same school for the first 4 grades. Afterwards they are divided between little geniuses going into „Gymnsasium“, average ones going t…

agreed. the whole system is bonkers and screams of elitism. like you are either born smart or you'll never make it. fortunately there is also gesamtschule. which does away with that, there is no distinction between levels. only your grades have to be good enough by grade 10 to make it into the oberstufe (yrs 11-13). i barely made it through, and i would not have made it without that because neither my parents nor me…

The other side of the coin is that you have ambitious kids in a class who are distracted and sometimes even bullied by kids with zero ambitions.

You think that's more fair to the ambitious kids when 2/3 of the class think it's cool to NOT learn anything and playing pecking order games all day?

Re: Where do the children play?

#114
post #110

> There’s no point in whining about the impulses endowed to them by several hundred thousand years of evolution. Don’t hate the player; hate the game. And if you really hate the game, make a better one. I have contact with kids from 3 different places, 2 with high independent mobility and 1 with low independent mobility, and as much I like to agree that kids needs to be free, there's an important parental argument th…

Wait, so you're saying the major factor in the parents decision making on letting kids run free is not if they'll get hurt or not, its if they get hurt enough to miss school and not being able to take off work?

Sounds very situational.

Re: Where do the children play?

#115
post #99
post #4

I think this heavily depends on location. At 7 my child can check nearly all the boxes for independent activities. My wife may not like it, but the surroundings are probably safer than anywhere else in the world. The only thing we don’t have is forests. This is central Tokyo. Kids still spend a lot of time on Roblox because everyone tends to be deathly afraid of letting them ring each other’s doorbells.

Seeing tiny tiny kids walking around is one of my favourite qualities of Japanese life, and on the flipside I sensed a quiet but shared responsibility/interest everyone took in making sure no harm befell the child on their journey. One the purest luxuries of living in such a high trust society

It's great, you just need to be Japanese.

Re: Where do the children play?

#116
post #10
post #5

Reading the US 8-12 year olds' stats made me flinch, because as someone grow up in the middle east this is inconceivable. I guess I'll dive into rabbit hole about modern-day stats of Europe and other places to compare.

Same phone addiction in Europe as elsewhere. No way to fight addictive stuff. Most parents don’t even try or care. Add tragic demographics and 8-12 year olds are all alone with their phones. Let’s talk about special school system here in Bavaria (Germany). Kids from specific area go to same school for the first 4 grades. Afterwards they are divided between little geniuses going into „Gymnsasium“, average ones going t…

Your scenario paints an overly negative picture. Neither do the majority of the kids move between schools every year, nor do they switch up classes within a school every year. They usually stay with the same class 2-3 years and only switch for individual courses for a couple of hours per week.

You can criticize the way how kids are separated into different levels by 5th grade, but this has nothing to do with being able to find friends.

Furthermore, your argument doesn't make much sense, because the school system is like this way before smartphones even existed and kids were able to find friends back then. It's not like the school system forces them into escapism. Just that smartphones are simply addictive.

Re: Where do the children play?

#117
Scary statistics from the US. Here's some anecdotal data from Norway (my daughter being the data, she's 11):

- Walked in a different aisle at a store. My daughter started going to the store alone from she was about 7.

- Talked with neighbours without parent. Uhm. That's just weird. I'm assume she was around 4? That's when we moved here..

- Made plans with friends, yeah, from she was around 5/6 or thereabouts.

- Walked/biked w/o parent: From 6/7, to/from school, and to friends.

- Built a structure outside: She's been part of building various structures in scouts.

- Sharp knife: Since she was about 6 or 7.

And now I realize I need to wag my hands a bit back and forth with all the 6-7 stuff.

Anyhow; one of the best things we did was ensuring she joined the scouts. Creates incredibly independent kids. I've seen threads on reddit where people are wondering if it's OK to leave the 9 year old at home alone for 30 minutes, and I'm wondering what kind of lunacy that is. My daughter has been capable of walking / biking home from school since she was 6 or 7, and proceed to make her own afternoon snack before we arrive home from work. She's been baking since she was 8. Making toasts, omelets and whatnot since the same age. Scouts taught her how to use a gas burner outside when she was about 8 or 9.

I mean; come on.

Re: Where do the children play?

#118
post #15

There were reasons for the contrast with Western world. Safety and risk aversion is a major reason. City living means we don't know what the other person on the road is thinking. This was not the case in small villages or tribal settlements. Everyone knows about every move of the others. The whole community is like a single creature with many arms. The other reason is, prosperity means more affordability to avoid ris…

>Everyone knows about every move of the others.

If you read a lot of commentary on urban vs rural living, this is usually the top criticism of living in a small town. I've lived in both, and I much prefer knowing my neighbors.

Re: Where do the children play?

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and playing smug semantic arguments like that doesn't help. How is it semantic? They go outside and now they are running in a giant parking lot. They go a bit further and now you're a bad parent for not keeping an eye on your kid. Tell them to sit down and play on a tablet and you're also a bad parent. There's no winning here. >you wouldn't tell someone in the library not to hush them. I don't consider a mall the eq…

If you let your kids run around in giant parking lots I would argue you are a bad parent. That seems like asking for an accident. > Tell them to sit down and play on a tablet and you're also a bad parent. Yes. If this is the alternative to playing in parking lots that comes to your mind first, I really wonder what kind of experiences you had. > There's no winning here. Ever heard of parks?

How do they get to the park?

Re: Where do the children play?

#120

Yeah well, we have one kid, and we're too old to have another. He's the only grandchild on both sides of the family. He has no cousins, first or second. That's apparently the new normal in many countries. Of course he's going to live a sheltered life! It's easy to tell parents to let their kids roam free, but that advice is to copy the behaviour of parents that had ten kids. I said "had", because on average, two of t…

What a take...so if you had 3 kids and lost one it would only hurt a third as much as losing your one child now? Kids can play with other kids that are not in the family too...

> losing your one child now?

You have likely not lived in a society where every family has many kids, so extended families have dozens of grandkids/cousins. It gets to the point that in times of plenty there's an "excess" and societies go to war in some sense just to see if they can carve out a bit of territory at the "mere" cost of some tens of percent of their youth. I mean.. why not? If you have half a dozen that "made it" and enough land for only two to inherit, flip the coin on the rest of them and maybe they'll find glory and conquer some new patch of land. Or not. What other option is there?

That's how people used to think and behave for millenia.

Modern life is very, very different to even just a couple of hundred years ago, let alone for most of human existence pre-history!

I read a statistic that before modern times something like 15%-60% of men died due to violence! For comparison, if you're an adult male in Ukraine, you've had about a 0.5% chance of death from violence, 30x to 120x safer in the middle of a war than during peacetime in pre-state tribal life.

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