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Things that aren't doing the thing

strangestloop.io

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Re: Things that aren't doing the thing

#111

Post by satisfice »

code_biologist wrote: post #110
Aurornis wrote: post #105

> Preparing to do the thing isn't doing the thing. For some types of work, the work we call prep work is 90% of the work and most of what determines how well the finished product turns out. Painting is a good example. You can grab a bucket of paint and paint brush and start “doing the thing” by slapping paint on the surface. Your paint job is going to be very poor and fail early relative to a professional who properl…

Prep work sucks. In whatever field, I always love hearing from the greats how they make the hard work a little less sucky. Good tools, better workflows, figuring out what they can let slide, accepting the struggle and getting zen. The people who do it 80% right and manage to make peace with that always seem the most productive.

Unless doing the thing well matters to you.

How do you like those 80% Boeing aircraft with optional parts that may or may not come away in flight?

Re: Things that aren't doing the thing

#112

Post by atoav »

It is certainly a truth that many people have a fear to cross the threshold of doing something for real. That fear is usually a fear of committing to a potentially substandard result or a fear of getting started on the meat of what feels like a herculean problem. In short it is the fear of failing.

As an university level educator that helps students with mostly technical projects (so stuff neither I nor them have ever done): This fear is very common. But what I dislike about this advice is that preparing the thing is often in fact a necessary step of (A) deciding whether the thing is feasible and worth doing and (B) a part of what is needed to do the thing. Drafting the general layout and data flow and UI for your software can save you hours later. Having a good and fleshed out concept for a game may tell you if it is even worth putting years of your own time into it, what resources you will need, a research essay on different ways to detect motion may e what makes or breaks the result of your interactive art installation etc.

So preparation is necessary, but true experience only comes from going beyond the preparation phase. Feel it is impossible to start? Usually that means there is something that you feel insecure with. E.g. your game might need an inventory system and while you have a great idea how it should look and work, you have no idea how to actually program it. And if that small part of your task looks impossible, it makes the whole task appear extra-impossible.

The best way to deal with this is usually tackling the problem head on and make it a proof of concept. The problem is you can't program that inventory, and there are many ways to go at that particular problem, but if you can get a draft inventory going that means your biggest worry is taken care of. That means dealing with the hard part first, even if you tell yourself it is just a proof of concept that won't land in the final thing is a good approach. Divide and conquer. The whole thing seems impossible? Break it down into smaller steps thst seem more managable.

Re: Things that aren't doing the thing

#113

Post by satisfice »

For skilled, innovative, and complex work, all the things he says is not doing the thing: are part of doing the thing.

This post is foolish and self-destructive.

If I trace backward from the ideas that earn me money and prestige today, every one of them is rooted in playful or apparently unproductive behavior.

Re: Things that aren't doing the thing

#114

Post by satisfice »

chairmansteve wrote: post #100
saulpw wrote: post #31

In the Viable System Model[0], "doing the thing" is System 1. Yes of course you need System 1 or the thing won't get done. But in any viable system, you also have the "meta-systems", Systems 2-5: - System 2: coordination between multiple Systems 1 (which includes prioritization, communication, and exceptional conditions) - System 3: resource allocation and process development - System 4: strategy and risk management…

Thing is, you have to start doing the thing to figure out what things you need to do the thing.

Yes. Also, attempting to do the thing and failing is indeed doing the thing. (although you may only know in retrospect)

Re: Things that aren't doing the thing

#115

Post by satisfice »

jstummbillig wrote: post #32
saulpw wrote: post #31

In the Viable System Model[0], "doing the thing" is System 1. Yes of course you need System 1 or the thing won't get done. But in any viable system, you also have the "meta-systems", Systems 2-5: - System 2: coordination between multiple Systems 1 (which includes prioritization, communication, and exceptional conditions) - System 3: resource allocation and process development - System 4: strategy and risk management…

Certainly, but don't get confused: You are not doing the thing, until you do the thing. There are many ways to do the thing. There are many more ways to not do the thing.

You can’t know in the moment whether the thing you are doing is doing the thing. In retrospect alone does it become clear.

Re: Things that aren't doing the thing

#116

Post by satisfice »

saulpw wrote: post #40
mhdi_kr99 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

writing this reply on hackernews is not "doing the thing" bro.

You have no idea what my thing is and whether or not I'm doing it via this post on HN.

Some replies I have made in Hacker news I later expanded, refined, and included in my classes or books.

Re: Things that aren't doing the thing

#117

Post by atoav »

code_biologist wrote: post #110
Aurornis wrote: post #105

> Preparing to do the thing isn't doing the thing. For some types of work, the work we call prep work is 90% of the work and most of what determines how well the finished product turns out. Painting is a good example. You can grab a bucket of paint and paint brush and start “doing the thing” by slapping paint on the surface. Your paint job is going to be very poor and fail early relative to a professional who properl…

Prep work sucks. In whatever field, I always love hearing from the greats how they make the hard work a little less sucky. Good tools, better workflows, figuring out what they can let slide, accepting the struggle and getting zen. The people who do it 80% right and manage to make peace with that always seem the most productive.

You can do a good job if you want to. But that usually required taking a step back and thinking about these 20% you didn't manage last time. Maybe you use the wrong approach, the wrong tool, maybe your tool is no longer sharp because you told yourself prep sucks. 80/20 is a good philosophy if you just want to earn a living, but a bad philosophy if you want to reach mastery (which coincidentally can translate into making a relatively good living).

The important part is, that the greats never were okay with just 80%. Their goal is usually to make the best work they can and that means improving on things they have previously done. That doesn't mean the project needs more work or resources. It means it makes best use of the work and resources available while delivering something that satisfies the masters quality standards.

Also: In some cases 80/20 mediocrity does in fact not cut it and it is just an excuse to do less work and not to think hard about things.

Re: Things that aren't doing the thing

#118

Post by atoav »

chairmansteve wrote: post #100
saulpw wrote: post #31

In the Viable System Model[0], "doing the thing" is System 1. Yes of course you need System 1 or the thing won't get done. But in any viable system, you also have the "meta-systems", Systems 2-5: - System 2: coordination between multiple Systems 1 (which includes prioritization, communication, and exceptional conditions) - System 3: resource allocation and process development - System 4: strategy and risk management…

Thing is, you have to start doing the thing to figure out what things you need to do the thing.

Well, to really know how things would pan out, you have to indeed do the thing.

And it happens that people will procrastinate with preparation. But as someone who does not and is fast at doing things I can tell you that if I want something done really fast preparation will be a good chunk of a projects time. If I want to toy around and the project doesn't matter that much, just doing the thing may do the trick.

Now the advice on that site aims to get people started with the actual work part and tries to do so by telling you preparation doesn't matter. That is not true. But it is true that people prepare forever because they are afraid to cross the threshold where they start translating grand ideas into concrete, protentially flawed reality. That means actually good advice would deal with the question where this fear comes from, how to address it and how to notice you have been preparing too long.

If you want to build a house, drawing the plans and finding the right location where to put said house is part of building a house. Or you could just mash bricks on top of each other in your backyard and then realize you forgot the foundation.

Re: Things that aren't doing the thing

#120

Post by code_biologist »

atoav wrote: post #117
code_biologist wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prep work sucks. In whatever field, I always love hearing from the greats how they make the hard work a little less sucky. Good tools, better workflows, figuring out what they can let slide, accepting the struggle and getting zen. The people who do it 80% right and manage to make peace with that always seem the most productive.

You can do a good job if you want to. But that usually required taking a step back and thinking about these 20% you didn't manage last time. Maybe you use the wrong approach, the wrong tool, maybe your tool is no longer sharp because you told yourself prep sucks. 80/20 is a good philosophy if you just want to earn a living, but a bad philosophy if you want to reach mastery (which coincidentally can translate into mak…

Thanks for the thoughtful comment. It's complicated.

I'm a perfectionist miniature painter by hobby. I love the stories floating around about how quantity can lead to quality (photography, pottery): https://austinkleon.com/2020/12/10/quantity-leads-to-quality...

In most of my hobbies I feel like my growth and talent is limited by lack of volume, not my care or attention to detail. It's hard to let go and use one color instead of three, or not fix a flaw in model part nobody will ever see. I'm sure other people have the opposite challenge.

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