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Some people can't see mental images

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Re: Some people can't see mental images

#111

Post by cal85 »

abetusk wrote: post #86
vorbits wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what does it mean "visualize" ? I can "think" of an apple and all it's detail, but I wouldn't describe any visual sensation. If I had to draw the apple I could draw it detail, right down the the variation in colors on it's skin. But no sense of this experience feels like a visual sensation. It feels like "thinking". To me, the act of closing my eyes emphasizes that this isn't a visual sensation for me, because wi…

Bring a picture of an apple up on your computer screen and look at it for 30 seconds. There is a fidelity to that image that includes the color, texture, stem, shape, reflection, etc. Now close your eyes and try to picture an apple for 30 seconds. Is the same experience as if having that picture in front of you? As in, can you picture, in your minds eye, an image of an apple as if you were looking at on your computer…

> I think there really are people who can visualize that apple.

Based on what evidence?

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#112

Post by ambicapter »

ElevenLathe wrote: post #105
andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

Relatedly, I'm not sure I really believe people who say they think in code and can't be bothered to render their ideas in design or decision documents with actual reasoning. I can't even tell if something is a real thought I'm having /in my own head/ until I've written it down or otherwise recorded it somewhere in the consensus reality. Very often, I /think/ I've got some problem or idea all fleshed out in my mind, b…

I think its far more likely that they're just bad at writing or drawing. Tons of people can picture a scene in their head but are absolutely terrible at drawing it, and can only render much more boring imagery in text.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#113

Post by drooby »

karmakaze wrote: post #98
mnmalst wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am the same and I am not convinced people can really - see - things. Like, when I close my eyes, I see the inside of my eye lids, the blackness. When I then try to imagine a candle for example there is no candle appearing in the darkness, I just remember how a candle is shaped its parts and similar characteristics. I see nothing.

I'm also the same, but I do believe others can vividly see creations in their mind's eye. Nikola Tesla was one who could tinker in his imagination. Of course I wish I could do the same. On the other hand, like a blind person with other heightened senses, I have strengths in thought that surpass what seeing concretely may obscure. Most of my thoughts and reasoning is more like following graphs of related bits of vague…

I'm convinced I probably have aphantasia.. maybe even quite extreme. On a scale of 1-10 probably 1 or 2 vividness.

But if I take shrooms.... I can actually see objects with my eyes closed. I can rotate them. Morph them. It's so fun! Huge bummer that I miss out on stuff like this in my daily life.

What's weird is that I can still "rotate objects" and correctly predict their final state when I am sober (up to a point, of course). But I am blind to the actual visual. It's hard to explain. It's just not registering in my consciousness - but perhaps it's there behind the curtain.

So, the mind is undoubtedly capable of performing this feat. However, my brain in sober state is not wired to transfer information in this way.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#114

Post by [deleted] »

the_af wrote: post #44
mnmalst wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am the same and I am not convinced people can really - see - things. Like, when I close my eyes, I see the inside of my eye lids, the blackness. When I then try to imagine a candle for example there is no candle appearing in the darkness, I just remember how a candle is shaped its parts and similar characteristics. I see nothing.

> I just remember how a candle is shaped its parts and similar characteristics If you do not somehow "see" the shape of the candle, how do you remember its physical characteristics? Is it like a list of physical properties in abstract form? An irregular cylinder of diameter X, longer than it's diameter, etc? I can see, in front of me, a lit candle if I wish it. I cannot claim it's picture-perfect, but I can see it; a…

[deleted]

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#115

Post by mnmalst »

abetusk wrote: post #90
mnmalst wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really saying you can see an apple in the same way you see an apple with eyes opened? The exact same way? So if you close your eyes, imagine an apple and then look at an apple that someone holds in front of your eye, the apple looks exactly the same? As if you could look through your closed eye lids?

I'm not saying that at all. I think I have aphantasia. For me the score is 1 or 2 to picture that apple. I was shocked to realize that when people said "imagine in your minds eye", they meant it literally. This seems to be a common experience for people with aphantasia [0]. Note that when I'm close to sleep or dreaming, then yes, my minds eye visualization is close to photographic parity. While awake, its almost comp…

I don't feel like I know better what other people experience talking about it here. :)

Just now, what you wrote for example.

> my minds eye visualization is close to photographic parity.

What does this mean? Does this mean it's literally the exact same experience as if your eyes were open and you are looking at the picture? Or is it more like you imagine it and it's somewhere popping up in the back of your head?

When I read a book for example I can imagine what I read but it's not even close to "seeing" it. It's a completely different sensation and visual fidelity. It's just not "seeing".

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#116

Post by gowld »

ElevenLathe wrote: post #105
andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

Relatedly, I'm not sure I really believe people who say they think in code and can't be bothered to render their ideas in design or decision documents with actual reasoning. I can't even tell if something is a real thought I'm having /in my own head/ until I've written it down or otherwise recorded it somewhere in the consensus reality. Very often, I /think/ I've got some problem or idea all fleshed out in my mind, b…

Code is "written it down or otherwise recorded it somewhere in the consensus reality"

"thinking in code" means "render their ideas in code", like you render your ideas in English.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#117

Post by altruios »

mnmalst wrote: post #96
bigyikes wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the parent, but I relate to their experience. It depends on what you mean by “see”. It’s nothing like seeing with my eyes, and it’s nothing like dreaming. When I “see” it is abstract. There are impressions and sensations. I can recall the qualities of something - even the visual qualities - but it doesn’t feel like sight. Can you remember what something smells like? I can recall a foul smell, but I don’t recoil b…

yes I think you come close to describing how I imagine things. Seeing is just fundamentally the wrong word, at least in my case. When I for example imagine a road I rode on with my bike the other day and do this with my eyes open, there is nothing popping up in front of my eyes, mixed with what i actually see atm, it's more like abstractions popping up in the back of my head. Very simple drawings maybe, just the cont…

Perhaps it is a mental process you can train and get better at. I understand the 'back of the head', location for imagination. And now - for me - it's at the front with some specific training. Drawing (and specific techniques within) have been the cause of the biggest shifts to 'where/how' my imagination is.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#118

Post by abetusk »

cal85 wrote: post #111
abetusk wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bring a picture of an apple up on your computer screen and look at it for 30 seconds. There is a fidelity to that image that includes the color, texture, stem, shape, reflection, etc. Now close your eyes and try to picture an apple for 30 seconds. Is the same experience as if having that picture in front of you? As in, can you picture, in your minds eye, an image of an apple as if you were looking at on your computer…

> I think there really are people who can visualize that apple. Based on what evidence?

The article goes into the history.

Here's an article I found recently:

"Quantifying Aphantasia through drawing: Those without visual imagery show deficits in object but not spatial memory" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7856239/

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#119

Post by kaffekaka »

Given how diffently people describe various phenomena which are easier to actually compare, I have lost most hope of quantitatively understanding aphantasia. Of course people differ in ability to visualize thing and using "the minds eye", but exactly what they mean when describing their experience is only confusing.

Many, many people are so very imprecise with words. And we humans are generally bad at analyzing ourselves vs others.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#120

Post by tayloramurphy »

zephyrthenoble wrote: post #60

I think an interesting different way to talk about aphantasia is not, "Can you see an apple when you close your eyes" but more along the linked of, "Can you mentally edit the visual reality you see?" A common exercise while being in the back seat of a car while I was young was to imagine someone in a skateboard riding along the power lines on the side of the road, keeping pace with our car. It's not literally overrid…

Mine was a guy running next to us jumping over any shadows on the road. He'd stumble a bit and then be able to sprint to catch up.
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