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TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

tigerbeetle.com

111–120 of 213 posts

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#111
post #20

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>leaving Rust for Zig for the sheer enjoyment of using it instead. What do people find more enjoyable?

Zig feels like a better C with modern tooling. It is a tool that works for me. Rust feels like a better C++ with modern tooling. I am a tool that works for it.

Most people stop feeling like they are fighting with rust a few months into using it. The borrow checker is something that becomes second nature and you still use the same techniques that would please the borrow checker outside of rust because it's generally better program structure in many cases and avoids bugs. If you want to do something that you know us correct that rust normally doesn't allow, just use unsafe. It's not the end of the world. You don't need to resort to a different language to achieve that same result.

This isn't to say it's better or worse than zig. If you're developing software and zig works for your needs, go for it. I'd like to see it used on a 100+ person project to see how it might hold up to the problems that I tend to see in c++, which largely arise for people not knowing about constraints that are not tracked explicitly by the compiler. On projects with less people, this doesn't happen as often.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#112
post #74

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Where can I get a $512k a year salary job?

Keep in mind the rule of thumb that a employee costs twice their salary, so that would be a 206k/year salary. Generous for some, low for others. The salary spread in the US is crazy.

Where does it say that an employee costs twice their salary? My experience is more like 25-30% more.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#113
post #100
post #91

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Experiments very often become production and now you have security holes and technical debt.

Yes, that's a tradeoff, bondage and discipline languages like Ada and Rust are popular in some fields for a reason. What I like the most is a middle ground: have a language that it permissive when it comes to generating code, but be strict with warnings. Again, problem is that too many people don't care about warnings. Way too many times, I had people call me to investigate their bugs, see a warning, point it out and…

An interesting thought experiment would be a language/toolchain that would be permissive when generating debug builds, but hard-required warn-free to generate an optimized executable.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#114
post #68

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I'd guess that in 99% of cases, if the borrow checker is a problem for you in Rust then you are likely not ready yet for C or Zig, particularly when you need to work in a team where mainatainability by others is critical. There are some cases the borrow checker requires you to go through hoops for but I see that as a win for adding friction and raising visibility of weird patterns. And yes, there are cases that can't…

Sometimes, "weird" patterns are correct. The borrow checker doesn't care about nuance.

It’s also true that people overestimate how often the “weird” patterns are needed. 9 times out of 10 it’s the programmer who is missing something, not the borrow checker.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#115
post #49

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Very well done, sir! Now you challenged me to make a donation also. However, as an individual I assure you that it won't match yours.

Thank you, my friend! Let me know when it's done (only so that we can celebrate it together—good faith for the win!).

Just donated $100 to ZSF via ever.org!

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a well designed type system is a as addictive as sugar. Also, Rust has a bunch of annoying warts but the borrowck ain't one of them (unless you're trying to write a linked list but it's not really something that happens IRL).

The funny thing is, in a language like Zig where memory allocation is explicit, linked lists are way more popular, just like they were in C. What happens IRL depends on your environment. :)

Linked lists are not popular in zig though. There are pages and pages of discussions about how linked lists are almost universally slower than an array. Zig devs are borderline obsessive about cache efficiency.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes, "weird" patterns are correct. The borrow checker doesn't care about nuance.

It’s also true that people overestimate how often the “weird” patterns are needed. 9 times out of 10 it’s the programmer who is missing something, not the borrow checker.

That has not been my experience with it, but I understand if it is yours. I have often seen people use convoluted or slow patterns to satisfy the borrow checker when something slightly un-kosher would have been simpler, faster, and easier.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#118
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, my friend! Let me know when it's done (only so that we can celebrate it together—good faith for the win!).

Just donated $100 to ZSF via ever.org!

High five!

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#119
post #109
post #88

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The problem I have with what I call "bondage and discipline" languages is that while it has value making sure the code is correct, it is not pleasant (for me) to work with. Sometimes I just want to try out stuff, I know there is a bug, in fact, it breaks everything, but that's exactly what I want, I will revert it once my little expertement is complete. Strict languages will refuse to run anything unless you make sur…

Put Claude code on top of it and now you have prototypes of what you have in mind written pretty much instantly and they are suitable for reshaping into production later if needs to.

I'd be curious if there is additional tooling needed for this, as Zig is a moving target in terms of language/features.

I know of _ways_ to do this, but has anyone done this successfully with a RAG+version locked docs or something like that?

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#120
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>leaving Rust for Zig for the sheer enjoyment of using it instead. What do people find more enjoyable?

In a way, it's a return to simpler times. I remember learning programming C and it was about programming computers, not abstract concepts. As languages got higher level abstractions, we lost touch with the computer. That's why programs are so bloated today. Zig respects that we are programming a computer, with concrete behaviours, it doesn't try to abstract things away, doesn't hide complexity, and yet gives you tool…

I truly do not understand why anyone would think Rust is abstracting things away.

Like, to be clear: if you want to develop in Zig because you like it for whatever reason, you should do that. There is no world, nor will there ever be a world, where there's "one language to rule them all". This comment should not be read as "you should write Rust instead".

I just don't find any of your descriptions of Zig to be things that Rust is guilty of. You can (mostly) write the same things in each language, ship a static binary, and your users would never know the difference. IME you are generally as "in touch with the computer" in Rust as you are in Zig.

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