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ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

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Re: ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

#111

Post by klipklop »

lawlessone wrote: post #78
klipklop wrote: post #31

I know this is extreme, but people buying these Xbox handhelds over a Steam Deck are directly harming the future of gaming on PC. It's time that the PC gaming ecosystem breaks free from its dependency on Windows. Proton and SteamOS, combined with the unpopular mess that is Windows 11 is the perfect opportunity to do so. The long-term end goal for Microsoft is to lock down Windows and force signed code. Once users are…

If they switch to steamos doesn't that ameliorate the harm?

I think that is a nice start, but I don't want sales of "Xbox" devices growing so Microsoft throws more weight behind them.

Re: ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

#112

Post by klipklop »

zozbot234 wrote: post #42

On the other hand, Linux still lacks a gamepad-focused UX out of the box, which is the real selling proposition of this device. These handheld PC's are not inherently "gaming" machines, they could have all sorts of interesting enterprise-focused uses out in the field if we managed to find a nice way of centering the whole UX interaction on those weird chorded buttons and analog controls.

A Windows 11 gaming PC hooked up to a tv 100% needs a Mouse and Keyboard right now. You can't even sign in otherwise. This might change with their gamemode they are offering on these portables though.

Re: ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

#113

Post by dijit »

ndriscoll wrote: post #105
dijit wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been working in the industry now for 11 years, and this defeatism surrounding anticheat is frustrating. Especially when Epics anticheat which used to be free to use, supports linux.

What does defeatism mean here? As opposed to lobbying our representatives to make DRM (of which anticheat is a subset) or product tying restrictions (e.g. artificially requiring something to run on Windows/Xbox or Google Android or a Switch when a generic computer is perfectly capable of running it) illegal or something?

kernel level anticheat is a chicken and egg problem.

No game developers of seriously looking at enabling even in the cases where it is extremely easy and trivial to enable, because the additional support button isn’t considered worth it for the number of users as they might get.

so when I say it’s defeatist, what I mean is all you have to do is vote with your wallet enough and the games will follow. I know this an absolute fact because I’ve been in this conversation many times.

Re: ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

#114

Post by eru »

DigitallyFidget wrote: post #36
shmerl wrote: post #17

Nice! Linux gaming came a long way.

It really has. I had always tried to use Linux in the past, but gaming was always a fight, and the OS just never felt like it behaved reliable for daily usage for me, was always some little annoyance or bug or issue I'd run into and inevitably switch back to Windows for the sake of things just working without having to spend hours and days and weeks trying to fix issues. That was 10+ years ago. I finally decided to g…

I've been using Linux since the late 1990s.

Gaming has improved by leaps and bounds in the last few years, but non-gaming desktop use has been solid for ages. What little annoyances and bugs and issues kept you going back to Windows?

I found Windows 10 was the first bearable Windows, that I could use without wanting to go back to Linux all the time. Not great, but bearable.

I still used Windows for gaming throughout the whole time. (Until about a year ago, when I accidentally nuked my Windows installation, and then never bothered to set it up again..)

Depending on the job I had at the time, I also used Windows at work.

> As for all the linux a-holes out there, please STFU, I don't wanna hear "winblows sux" or "this distro is better", it's why I didn't specify what specific distro I use. That toxic fanboyism is what keeps people away from seeing it as a viable usable OS.

I've mostly heard that until perhaps about 10 years ago. I'm sure these people are still out there, but it seems to be much less common these days.

I use Arch Linux for what it's worth, but almost any distro can install almost any program (and they all run the same kernels), so it mostly comes down to what package manager and configuration system you want to use, and whether you like the defaults that come with your distribution.

I'm still having some trouble with screen tearing in some games on Linux, alas. I suspect these problems have been ironed out for the more mainstream window manager setups (like whatever you get in Ubuntu by default, instead of me using XMonad), but so far I couldn't be bothered to fix it, yet.

Re: ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

#115

Post by dijit »

Marsymars wrote: post #101
dijit wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been working in the industry now for 11 years, and this defeatism surrounding anticheat is frustrating. Especially when Epics anticheat which used to be free to use, supports linux.

Is it defeatism? I don’t game on Linux and generally like Windows, but from a principle and security perspective I’d preferably check a box on Windows to disallow any kernel-level anticheat from installing, and avoid any such games.

That’s fine, then those games are not available to you.

I’ll be honest, no matter how unpopular it is I’m really sorry, but those kind of solutions genuinely are the only way. I’ve said it before on HN, but we really do try everything. And not having anything leads to some of the worst experiences possible.

If you genuinely have a better solution, then you are more than welcome to enter the industry and make a significant amount of money.

Hell, I’ll offer you a job right now.

Re: ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

#116

Post by cortesoft »

eru wrote: post #96
cortesoft wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anti-cheats that the competitive games use rely on being able to trust that the checks they add to the kernel can't be overridden. It relies on Windows not being able to be modified to lie about that. Linux can lie about anything.

Is that a difference in degree or in kind? It's possible to change windows, just a lot harder. Unless you are talking about secure boot, but that's available to Linux just as much as to Windows. > Linux can lie about anything. Linux should lie about being Windows then.

It is about secure boot and TPM. Linux is unable to 'lie' well enough to emulate windows because it can't cryptographically verify that it is a legit windows install.

The anti cheat developers rely on Microsoft asserting that other cheats aren't loaded prior to the anti-cheat in the kernel. There is no such entity in Linux to attest that a particular linux install is not modified to load the cheats into the kernel before the anti-cheat.

Now, such an entity could be created, and a linux distro released that is signed by that entity, and then the anti-cheat could work on that distro. That would require you to only use that particular distro, though, and you would be limited in how you could change the kernel.

So far, there has not been the push needed to make that happen.

Re: ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

#117

Post by ndriscoll »

dijit wrote: post #113
ndriscoll wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does defeatism mean here? As opposed to lobbying our representatives to make DRM (of which anticheat is a subset) or product tying restrictions (e.g. artificially requiring something to run on Windows/Xbox or Google Android or a Switch when a generic computer is perfectly capable of running it) illegal or something?

kernel level anticheat is a chicken and egg problem. No game developers of seriously looking at enabling even in the cases where it is extremely easy and trivial to enable, because the additional support button isn’t considered worth it for the number of users as they might get. so when I say it’s defeatist, what I mean is all you have to do is vote with your wallet enough and the games will follow. I know this an ab…

Kernel-level DRM isn't a chicken/egg problem; it's completely at odds with people who are choosing to run an OS that obeys them instead of some random third party like Microsoft/Google/Apple on hardware they own. Voting with their wallet is precisely what the other user said they do.

Re: ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

#118

Post by eru »

cortesoft wrote: post #107
eru wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but on the margin you can still change your behaviour. Ie for games that previously you were on the fence about, a look at whether they play or do not play well on the Steam Deck or Linux in general can push you over the fence (on way or another).

Like I said, I have a lot of games that I love playing on the Steam Deck. I am often looking for games that run well on Steam Deck. I am not sure what behavior on the margins I can change that would change the situation. My favorite games can't be played on Steam Deck. Like I said, I have been playing these games for 30 years. I am not about to change my favorite games just so I can make a point about the importance…

> My favorite games can't be played on Steam Deck. Like I said, I have been playing these games for 30 years. I am not about to change my favorite games just so I can make a point about the importance of Steam Deck compatibility. That won't change anything other than I won't be able to play my favorite games anymore.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting you change your favourite games or how you play them.

But I was assuming you are playing more than just your three favourite games over and over again?

> For years I settled on playing on XBOX, but i eventually got annoyed enough i stopped buying the game completely.

This is an example where you changed your behaviour on the margin.

Or another example: if one cupcake tastes massively better to you than another, you are going to buy that. But if there are two drinks that could go about equally well with your cupcake (Pepsi and Coke, say) and you are fairly indifferent between them otherwise, you'll probably going to have a look at the price or what's more convenient etc.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginalism

Re: ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

#119

Post by cortesoft »

eru wrote: post #94
simlevesque wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing any PvP games without them isn't fun anymore.

I suspect playing any PvP game with random members of the public? Playing Streetfighter 2 with people you know should still be fun?

As an avid gamer for 35+ years, I have played a ton of PvP both locally and online.

One of those experiences can't replace the other.

I am married with two young children. All of my video game time comes in the hour or two after they go to bed and before I go to bed. I don't have friends around at that time, yet I still want to get some good multiplayer gaming in.

Online matchmaking is amazing these days. You are able to match up against people of about your skill level at any time of day. That experience is magical, compared to the matchmaking from 25 years ago where you would try to find a random lobby, and the players might be amazing or terrible.

Re: ROG Xbox Ally runs better on Linux than Windows it ships with

#120

Post by ndriscoll »

dijit wrote: post #115
Marsymars wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it defeatism? I don’t game on Linux and generally like Windows, but from a principle and security perspective I’d preferably check a box on Windows to disallow any kernel-level anticheat from installing, and avoid any such games.

That’s fine, then those games are not available to you. I’ll be honest, no matter how unpopular it is I’m really sorry, but those kind of solutions genuinely are the only way. I’ve said it before on HN, but we really do try everything. And not having anything leads to some of the worst experiences possible. If you genuinely have a better solution, then you are more than welcome to enter the industry and make a signif…

Simple solution that makes everyone happy: make it optional. Anticheat was optional in pretty much every 00s game that had it, and even in the servers that had it disabled, cheating was still rarely an issue. Diablo 2 even let you still bring your single player characters that you could obviously cheat with (which everyone knew from Diablo 1) onto Open Battle.net. Make the Internet optional like it used to be while you're at it with LAN/direct IP support so you can stick to friends only and keep your purchase forever.

Oh but then you can't make all of your revenue on stuff like gambling for textures that anyone could just mod in like they used to.

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