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The Programmer Identity Crisis

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Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#111

Post by aleph_minus_one »

strix_varius wrote: post #57

To me, the most salient point was this: > Code reviewing coworkers are rapidly losing their minds as they come to the crushing realization that they are now the first layer of quality control instead of one of the last. Asked to review; forced to pick apart. Calling out freshly added functions that are never called, hallucinated library additions, and obvious runtime or compilation errors. All while the author—who cl…

The problem rather is that you still have to stay somewhat agreeable while calling out the bullshit. If you were "socially allowed" to treat colleagues like

> All while the author—who clearly only skimmed their “own” code—is taking no responsibility, going “whoopsie, Claude wrote that. Silly AI, ha-ha.”

as they really deserve, the problem would disappear really fast.

So the problem that you outlined is rather social, and not the LLMs per se (even though they very often do produce shitty code).

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#112

Post by jimbokun »

senordevnyc wrote: post #55
dingnuts wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A chef who sharpens his knives should stop because it doesn't add value A contractor who prefers a specific brand of tool is wrong because the tool is a means to an end This is what you sound like. Just because you don't understand the value of a craftsman picking and maintaining their tools doesn't mean the value isn't real.

Yes, but the point of being a chef is the food, not the knives. If there's a better way to prepare food than a knife, but you refuse to change, are you really a chef? Or are you a chef knife enthusiast?

Ok then throw a frozen meal from the supermarket into the microwave and be done with it.

Outcome is really the same, right? Why waste all that effort on a deep understanding of how to prepare food?

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#113

Post by jimbokun »

RamtinJ95 wrote: post #28

I think "Identity Crisis" is a bit over dramatic, but I for the most part agree with the sentiment. I have written something in the same vane, but still different enough that I would love to comment it but its just way more efficient to point to my post. I hope that is OK: https://handmadeoasis.com/ai-and-software-engineering-the-co...

I can think of few truer identity crises than having a craft you have spent years honing and perfecting automated away.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#114

Post by bdangubic »

jimbokun wrote: post #109
whynotminot wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would someone who likes solving problems choose a very lucrative career path solving problems… hmmm You can also solve problems as a local handyman but that doesn’t pad the 401K quite as well as a career in software. I feel like there’s a lot of tech-fetishist right now on the “if you don’t deeply love to write code then just leave!” train without somehow realizing that most of us have our jobs because we need to…

You owe your cushy job and big paycheck entirely to those tech-fetishists that came before you. Secondly, you are very blind if you don’t see that the AI making your job “easier” is close to replacing you entirely, if you don’t also have a deep understanding of the code produced. What’s to stop the Project Manager from vibe coding you out of the loop entirely?

State of the industry both short and medium term is that you want to be the one doing replacing vs being the one being replaced. Not great but this is where we are at. If you are say SRE there are myriad of companies working hard to eliminate SREs but they need experts to set shit up so that SREs are not needed. Same thing will cascade to other Tech work, some faster than others. Career-wise I think it is wise now to position yourself as one that knows how to set shit up for the “great replacement”

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#115

Post by aeblyve »

This process has been affecting most of the world's workers for the past several centuries. Programming has received a special treatment for the last few decades, and it's understandable that HN users would jump to protect their life investment, but it need not.

Hand-coding can continue, just like knitting co-exists with machine looms, but it need not ultimately maintain a grip on the software productive process.

It is better to come to terms with this reality sooner rather than later in my opinion.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#116

Post by jimbokun »

sharadov wrote: post #84

Great read, unlike technologies of the past that automated away the dangerous/boring/repetitive/soul-sucking jobs, LLM's are an assault on our thinking. Social media already reduced our attention spans to that of goldfish, open offices made any sort of deep meaningful work impossible. I hope this madness dies before it devours us.

Probably too late.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#117

Post by AnimalMuppet »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #111
strix_varius wrote: post #57

To me, the most salient point was this: > Code reviewing coworkers are rapidly losing their minds as they come to the crushing realization that they are now the first layer of quality control instead of one of the last. Asked to review; forced to pick apart. Calling out freshly added functions that are never called, hallucinated library additions, and obvious runtime or compilation errors. All while the author—who cl…

The problem rather is that you still have to stay somewhat agreeable while calling out the bullshit. If you were "socially allowed" to treat colleagues like > All while the author—who clearly only skimmed their “own” code—is taking no responsibility, going “whoopsie, Claude wrote that. Silly AI, ha-ha.” as they really deserve, the problem would disappear really fast. So the problem that you outlined is rather social,…

They should get a clear explanation of the problem and of the team expectations the first time it happens.

If it happens a second time? A stern talk from their manager.

A third time? PIP or fired.

Let your manager be the bad guy. That's part of what they're for.

Your manager won't do that? Then your team is broken in a way you can't fix. Appeal to their manager, first, and if that fails put your resume on the street.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#118

Post by bdangubic »

inglor_cz wrote: post #105
whynotminot wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would someone who likes solving problems choose a very lucrative career path solving problems… hmmm You can also solve problems as a local handyman but that doesn’t pad the 401K quite as well as a career in software. I feel like there’s a lot of tech-fetishist right now on the “if you don’t deeply love to write code then just leave!” train without somehow realizing that most of us have our jobs because we need to…

At 47, I am an older guy already. But in my generation, people who went on to be programmers usually started tinkering with code at ~ 11 y.o. (back then on ZX Spectrum and similar cheap beasts available in freshly post-Communist Europe) out of interest and passion, not because of "I want to build a lucrative career". (Given how massively widespread piracy was back then, programming looked rather like a good way to do…

Hard agree, I am 51 and all of this resonates true with me except…

> That is NOT the same sort of talent. My fingers are clumsy; my mind is not.

if handyman work was paying $600/hr your fingers would un-clums themselves reaaaaaaly fast :)

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#119

Post by jimbokun »

debo_ wrote: post #68

As an aside, I've been using copilot code review before handing off any of my code to colleagues. It's a bit pedantic, but it generally catches all the most stupid things I've done so that the final code review tends to be pretty smooth. I hate to suggest that the fix to LLM slop is more LLMs, but in this case it's working for me. My coworkers also seem to appreciate the gesture.

It’s fascinating idea, though, to invert the process and have devs develop and LLMs do the code reviews. Might be more productive in the long run.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#120

Post by jimbokun »

pteetor wrote: post #7

When COBOL was born, some people said, "It's English! We won't need programmers anymore!" When SQL was born, some people said, "It's English! We won't need programmers anymore!" Now we have AI prompting, and some people are saying, "It's English! We won't need programmers anymore!" Really?

Every time they have been closer to being right.
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