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RTO: WTAF

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Re: RTO: WTAF

#111

Post by surgical_fire »

gabesullice wrote: post #9

I'm genuinely interested in why RTO is trending. I searched Harvard Business Review, Gartner, and other sources just last week trying to find the rationale, but I wasn't successful. In fact, I found those sources to be a little cautionary. E.g., they say "if you do switch to in-office or hybrid, make sure you actually have metrics to evaluate the effects" and "ensure it makes sense for the actual work to be done by e…

At some point I cared about the reason. I have since stopped caring.

Even if a bunch of companies adopt RTO, many others just embraced remote work as a competitive advantage. I can just choose to work for those.

So, RTO all you want. I am not joining.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#112

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

eska wrote: post #97
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are. This is sortof absurd on the face of it. For context, I'm a European who's been working for US based companies for well over a decade now, and rarely do I have communications issues (and they're generally with non-native English speakers, mostly Europeans living in the US). > I think that American tech companies wo…

In order to fire a German employee outside of their multiple month trial period they have to commit a crime or willfully ignore instructions, or the company must be in financial trouble due to outside circumstances. Underperforming is not a legal reason to fire somebody.

> In order to fire a German employee outside of their multiple month trial period they have to commit a crime or willfully ignore instructions, or the company must be in financial trouble due to outside circumstances. Underperforming is not a legal reason to fire somebody.

Do you have a source for this claim? I'm not an expert in German employment law but would love to learn more.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#114

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #112
eska wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to fire a German employee outside of their multiple month trial period they have to commit a crime or willfully ignore instructions, or the company must be in financial trouble due to outside circumstances. Underperforming is not a legal reason to fire somebody.

> In order to fire a German employee outside of their multiple month trial period they have to commit a crime or willfully ignore instructions, or the company must be in financial trouble due to outside circumstances. Underperforming is not a legal reason to fire somebody. Do you have a source for this claim? I'm not an expert in German employment law but would love to learn more.

A quick Google produces this: https://boundlesshq.com/guides/germany/end-of-employment/

The only thing that seems different from Ireland (where I live) is the Works Council hearing part.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#115

Post by us-merul »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #106
us-merul wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also turns remote work into a negotiated benefit, which may be preferred over actual raises.

Well, if we're going to negotiate, let's negotiate both ways. You want me in the office? Then I have to commute, and my time's not free . Are you going to pay me for my commute time?

Right. If employers set RTO as the default, you may be able to negotiate remote time instead of a pay raise. They’re less willing to pay you more to commute and would rather see the commute as the expectation.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#116

Post by schmookeeg »

mft_ wrote: post #109
swiftcoder wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ego We can give them bigger/more-prominent zoom portraits by seniority. Should make everyone happy. > Real estate Probably shouldn't still be gambling company finances on real estate, 5 years after a pandemic forced us all to go remote. > Extroverts Great! We can put all the extroverts back in the glass fishbowl, while the rest of us do actual work from home

> We can give them bigger/more-prominent zoom portraits by seniority. Should make everyone happy. This would be hilarious, from a malicious compliance sort of angle...

From coveting the corner office, to coveting the corner 200x200px zoom square. What a time to be alive. :D

Re: RTO: WTAF

#117

Post by BobaFloutist »

bonoboTP wrote: post #26

It bears repeating that if you're a tech worker in the US, your greatest asset is your physical location. You might think you like remote jobs, but you will have competition from South America, Western and Eastern Europe, etc. as well as people in the US living in flyover states in the middle of nowhere with cheap rent. If the focus also shifts more to raw input-output task accomplishmentbas opposed to in person soci…

>There is a vast gulf between the salaries in the US and even Western Europe in tech.

American companies are welcome to start offering Western European level benefits (and compensate for missing government benefits) at any time. I would happily accept 30-50% less pay for a very solid health insurance plan, pay for my childcare 30 days of paid vacation a year that I'm actually entitled to take, 6 months of paid maternity leave + some paternity leave, a contract that restricts my working hours and makes it meaningfully legally difficult to frivolously fire me and practically impossible to lay me off of the company isn't failing, and an hour paid lunch every day.

Nobody seems to be offering that, for whatever reason. The closest is non-profits, who lack the cash to meet standard salaries but try to make up with benefits (which are, after all, cheaper), but for profit companies seem to prefer to pony up and retain the control at-will employment grants them

Re: RTO: WTAF

#118

Post by varispeed »

us-merul wrote: post #115
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if we're going to negotiate, let's negotiate both ways. You want me in the office? Then I have to commute, and my time's not free . Are you going to pay me for my commute time?

Right. If employers set RTO as the default, you may be able to negotiate remote time instead of a pay raise. They’re less willing to pay you more to commute and would rather see the commute as the expectation.

Salary isn’t a meter ticking from 9 to 5, and it’s not a line item of “WFH credits” vs. “commute debits.” Salary is simply the number that convinces you to show up and do the work. Whether you sit in an office, in your kitchen, or on the beach is irrelevant - the company pays because they need outcomes, not because of your postcode or chair type.

That’s why all this “WFH as benefit / RTO as cost” chatter is sleight of hand. It nudges you into negotiating around scraps instead of the only thing that matters: total compensation for total output. Companies push that framing precisely because it distracts you from asking for a bigger number.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#119

Post by varispeed »

Esophagus4 wrote: post #110
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's an element of management incompetence, or at least lack of confidence. They're not confident that they know how to manage a bunch of remote workers.

As a management, I understand that this is the perception… but it’s not remotely true. It astounds me how often this is repeated. It’s almost more of a conspiracy theory at this point. “Those evil incompetent managers are just so stupid they have to justify their existence by having people in office.” RTO is not about watching people in their seats all day to see who is productive. It’s about getting talented people…

The whole “RTO builds culture and networks” story is upside down. Culture isn’t something you force by sticking bodies in the same postcode; culture is what people build when they trust each other, share information freely, and aren’t ground down by pointless commutes. If your company can only transmit knowledge through overhearing desk chatter, you don’t have culture - you have an ad-hoc crutch for bad processes.

Mentorship isn’t “minute-to-minute hand-holding.” It’s structured review, clear documentation, and intentional teaching. If seniors are expected to babysit juniors in person all day, you haven’t built a system for growth, you’ve built a dependency loop that collapses as soon as those seniors leave.

And claiming remote is “very difficult to do well” is just an admission of managerial laziness. Remote is harder only if your toolkit begins and ends with meetings and hallway gossip. The companies that are intentional about remote show it scales just fine.

So yes, RTO is about (damage) control - not because managers are cartoon villains, but because without control, the hollowness of their systems is exposed.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#120

Post by 0x000xca0xfe »

We have a similar push for RTO here in Germany as well where the usual U.S. centric reasons don't apply (tax break law has not changed; we're still semi-ZIRP at 2%, no H1B visas, outsourcing is not a major trend either as many companies want German speaking employees).

I think the reason is simple: Lock-in for employees. Moving for your employer demonstrates dependence and highlights your inferior bargaining position. If you have to move again to switch jobs it will be quite painful so you'll likely accept a lower salary instead.

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