You can't have faster than light travel without violations of causality. And while the equations of General Relatively allow for universes where causality is routinely violated, the probability that we are in such a universe seems vanishingly small. E.g., just because you can violate causality does not mean that you can go back in time and kill your grandfather. If you were to try, something would stop you, as a univ…
We aren't talking about time travel. So many people confuse the idea of FTL with time travel. General Relativity talks about frames of reference. Suppose you had a base on Mars and sent a radio signal to it from Earth. It would take between 4.3 to 21 minutes to reach Mars, depending on its distance from Earth at the time. If you simultaneously jumped in your 10x warp drive and set out, you would arrive at Mars in 25.…
Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say
111–120 of 186 posts
Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think you are understanding the concept here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive#Physics
I understand it perfectly fine for the purposes of this discussion. Edit: I can't believe people down-vote irrefutable facts, so let me state this ONE MORE TIME: It is an irrefutable fact of Special Relativity that if you can transmit any information from point A to point B faster than light would travel from point A to point B in a vacuum, then there are inertial frames of reference in which the information arrived…
But aside from all that it seems a little short-sighted to howl about how people can't do something. Time and time again nay-sayers have been proven wrong.
Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Based on this effect though, it doesn't travel from point A to point B faster than the speed of light. Point A and point B are literally much closer together. Perhaps the space time distortion makes impossible to think of it in terms of static frames of reference.
If you've somehow made A and B closer together, then you've made a wormhole, not a warp drive. Wormholes also come with "closed time-like loops", which allow for time travel.
Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say
#114You can't have faster than light travel without violations of causality. And while the equations of General Relatively allow for universes where causality is routinely violated, the probability that we are in such a universe seems vanishingly small. E.g., just because you can violate causality does not mean that you can go back in time and kill your grandfather. If you were to try, something would stop you, as a univ…
A lot of people responding to this thread do not understand relativity. The OP is correct, the fundamental problem is causality, relativity and FTL do not mix. The common way of saying it is that you can have two of the three: FTL, causality, or relativity. You cannot have all three. Here is a very nice explanation of why: http://thebestforumever.com/community/threads/tachyon-pistol... Also, I've never understood how…
However what I don't understand is this -- to say that the bullet shot by A passes B at 4 seconds presumes that we are talking about A's frame of reference (because it is from A's point of view that B is 4 seconds "behind" -- and likewise A is 4 seconds behind from B's perspective). However, what if, from B's frame of reference, A's bullet actually passes B at 0 seconds?
Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand it perfectly fine for the purposes of this discussion. Edit: I can't believe people down-vote irrefutable facts, so let me state this ONE MORE TIME: It is an irrefutable fact of Special Relativity that if you can transmit any information from point A to point B faster than light would travel from point A to point B in a vacuum, then there are inertial frames of reference in which the information arrived…
I'm sorry, but I just can't find any sort of citation stating that the Alcubierre drive violates any of these principles. I also can't find any mention of paradoxes incurred by the drive and there is only one mention of where the meta-materials themselves would have to violate the light speed limit. Here is how I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), but it is not travelling in a vacuum, it is crunching that v…
It is an irrefutable fact of Special Relativity that if you can transmit any
information from point A to point B faster than light would travel from point
A to point B in a vacuum, then there are inertial frames of reference in which
the information arrived at point B BEFORE it left point A.
Is there a reason why I can write this irrefutable fact a dozen times and people continue to ignore it like it was never stated?Look, I understand that people want perpetual motion machines. And I understand that people want the Earth to be the center of the universe. And I understand the fact that people want one plus one to equal three. But these things aren't going to happen.
With FTL, you have to pick two out of these three: FTL, Relativity, causality.
It is not a fact of science that you have to pick two out of the three. It is a fact of LOGIC.
Unless you've found a way to transcend the laws of logic, then we have to live within this constraint. So, if you want to have FTL, you either have to give up causality or Special Relativity. Is it conceivable that Special Relativity is wrong? Sure it's conceivable. Is it likely? NOT ON YOUR LIFE. And if you're willing to give up on Special Relativity, when why are we designing space ships based on General Relativity??? When Special Relativity goes out the window, so does GR!
So, are we going to give up on causality instead? Well, who am I to say yes or no. But if we decide that it's okay to give up on causality, then we have to bite the bullet and decide that we're okay with us being in a universe that is really, really strange. E.g., one that will thwart you somehow one way or another in any attempt you might make to transmit certain kinds of information, etc. One that might be perfectly okay with letting you visit your past self, and yet will suddenly give you a case of laryngitis if you try to tell your past self which stocks to buy. Who knows how weird it could get!
Re your space ship being in a vacuum or not: (1) It's still in a vacuum, and (2) it doesn't matter. What matters is if you can use it to transmit information from say Earth to Mars at a speed faster than a laser beam or radio signal would make it from Earth to Mars.
Re galaxies moving away from us at FTL speeds: (1) Yes, galaxies that are very far from us do move away from us at FTL speeds. Can you use this fact to transmit information between two points (e.g. two planets) at FTL speeds? No you cannot! Special Relativity says nothing at all about space itself moving at FTL speeds. It only puts constraints on information traveling from one point to another point at FTL speeds.
Go read the irrefutable fact at the top of this post again. Read it over and over again until you understand it. I can't keep repeating it over and over again for it only to fall on willfully deaf ears.
Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you've somehow made A and B closer together, then you've made a wormhole, not a warp drive. Wormholes also come with "closed time-like loops", which allow for time travel.
I don't know. This isn't something covered by special relativity. You certainly don't need a wormhole though. http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=575
This fact, however, does not allow information to be transmitted between two points in space at faster than the speed of light. That's the important constraint here. Causality is only violated when you transmit INFORMATION between TWO POINTS at faster than the speed of light.
Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sorry, but I just can't find any sort of citation stating that the Alcubierre drive violates any of these principles. I also can't find any mention of paradoxes incurred by the drive and there is only one mention of where the meta-materials themselves would have to violate the light speed limit. Here is how I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), but it is not travelling in a vacuum, it is crunching that v…
Did you read the part above where I wrote this: It is an irrefutable fact of Special Relativity that if you can transmit any information from point A to point B faster than light would travel from point A to point B in a vacuum, then there are inertial frames of reference in which the information arrived at point B BEFORE it left point A. Is there a reason why I can write this irrefutable fact a dozen times and peopl…
Edit: By the way. I did read the thing about point A and B and understand it completely. The thing is, it doesn't matter. This is why I'm absolutely sure now that you haven't got a clue as to what the drive actually does. Here let me explain it to you like you are 5. If you send a packet of information from point A to point B, and it goes faster than light, then yes that will screw with causality. But if instead you bring point A closer to point B, it will appear as though it is "traveling" (notice the quotes) faster than light. It is however not traveling. it isn't moving. No movement through space. Freefall. zero movement. Stillness. Think about that for a moment. Absolutely positively no movement. Complete stillness. There is a lack of motion with this drive relative to the speed of light. Mind you this isn't a wormhole because even wormholes can screw with causality. This is a space creator/destoyer. Destroys in the front, creates in the back. No movement is involved. I know it's really hard to wrap your head around but just think about it for a couple of days. think about bringing point A closer to point B instead of going through all the trouble of sending the information. Remember, doesn't move.
Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
As far as we know, dolphins, cockroaches, and platypuses are not space faring species. Whether their neighborhood is boring is a matter of opinion, of course.
They've also got a space faring race (well sort of) generally looking out for them.
Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say
#119You can't have faster than light travel without violations of causality. And while the equations of General Relatively allow for universes where causality is routinely violated, the probability that we are in such a universe seems vanishingly small. E.g., just because you can violate causality does not mean that you can go back in time and kill your grandfather. If you were to try, something would stop you, as a univ…
Mathematically, the structure of the proposed warp-drive is such that the spaceship is moving at http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/daydreaming-beyond-the-sol...
Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sorry, but I just can't find any sort of citation stating that the Alcubierre drive violates any of these principles. I also can't find any mention of paradoxes incurred by the drive and there is only one mention of where the meta-materials themselves would have to violate the light speed limit. Here is how I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), but it is not travelling in a vacuum, it is crunching that v…
Did you read the part above where I wrote this: It is an irrefutable fact of Special Relativity that if you can transmit any information from point A to point B faster than light would travel from point A to point B in a vacuum, then there are inertial frames of reference in which the information arrived at point B BEFORE it left point A. Is there a reason why I can write this irrefutable fact a dozen times and peopl…