Universities should be more than toll gates • Hacker News Board

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#111

Post by analog31 » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 3:12 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #29

kazen44 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is also a specific difference between germanic education and english/us education. Does the US not have something like a fachhochschule? A institute where peoeple are trained for specific fields/jobs? This systems seems to exist in most european countries that i know of, and it is specifically focussed on education related to a specific field or career. (this is also is there for different levels of prac…

There are schools like this, called various things like “technical schools” or “vocational schools.” But they tend to be looked down upon by the American middle class and higher; e.g., the average parent wants their kid to go to college, any college, over a vocational school. In other words, vocational schools are (unfortunately) associated with people that don’t do well in traditional school. From what I understand…

I recently talked with a German exchange student who is attending our local high school for a year. She said that German students take an exam that sorts them into different levels of high schools. If this is the case, then it would be very hard to prevent the same sorting from taking on a social class dimension.

But I also think we mythologize the trades. I can't remember a HN thread about higher education that didn't extol the virtues of trade school while dismissing college education as a scam. But are the trades really that wonderful? The tradespeople I've met, if they're my age, their bodies have been destroyed, or they've gotten out of the trades.

Many of the trades are cyclic, tied to the construction cycle. Many involve mostly small family-owned businesses that on the one hand greatly favor family members, and on the other, are exempt from certain labor laws such as OSHA reporting. Most are "not on the radar" of EEOC etc. The good things about the trades are if you're lucky enough to get into one of the bigger employers, that tend to be more highly regulated.

My knee jerk reaction is that we could get more people into the trades if we addressed real issues that affect the working class: Health care, retirement, workplace safety, and so forth.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#112

Post by skeeter2020 » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 3:14 PM UTC

tgv wrote: post #28

In contrast to many comments, I had a great time studying. Sure, the staff didn't have great teaching skills (classical prof with an unruly hairdo reading from the syllabus in a large hall), but after the first year, classes became smaller and teaching was --while not passionate-- certainly inspired in many cases. It was a period in which students could still pick an academic topic and write a (small) thesis for grad…

I loved my time at a big Canadian uni in the 90's and smaller one in early 2000's. Grad school a few years later was kind of disappointing; I thought everyone would be smarter. Still some good profs and the best students were awesome and inspiring, but I watched a shift towards distance education & foreign students that meant way more adminstrators and way less of the environment that made uni so great. I suspect it's even worse in the US

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#113

Post by xhkkffbf » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 3:16 PM UTC

jagged-chisel wrote: post #107

eitally wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or just didn’t take advantage of the opportunities presented to them. It's this. Most undergraduate students do not go to office hours, try to get to know their instructors, ask follow-up questions, pursue independent research, or do anything approaching "apprenticeship". Most American students matriculate into college/uni not even having ingrained behaviors that make any of these things obvious or approachable, so…

> … Most undergraduate students do not go to office hours, try to get to know their instructors, ask follow-up questions This was actively discouraged by the instructors in the school I attended. Not by policy, but by behavior - passive-aggressively belittling students for not “getting” the subject matter, showing a complete lack of interest in reciprocating any amount of getting to know the instructor. > … ask follo…

I was talking with a professor yesterday who claimed his students don't ask questions any more on Piazza. They used to, but now they go to ChatGPT which is always perky and ready to answer. Plus, there's no shame in asking a dumb question as there can be in class or on Piazza.

He says it's only a matter of time before the students realize they don't need him. Or need to pay tuition.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#114

Post by skeeter2020 » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 3:16 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #44

tgv wrote: post #28

In contrast to many comments, I had a great time studying. Sure, the staff didn't have great teaching skills (classical prof with an unruly hairdo reading from the syllabus in a large hall), but after the first year, classes became smaller and teaching was --while not passionate-- certainly inspired in many cases. It was a period in which students could still pick an academic topic and write a (small) thesis for grad…

> It became very financially oriented. > The number of students kept rising, norms kept dropping All due to the student loans scam. https://professorconfess.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-first-myth... https://professorconfess.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-second-myt... https://professorconfess.blogspot.com/2013/03/myth-3-college... https://professorconfess.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-last-myth....

not in Canada. Funding & allowed price increases has mostly been capped for a very long time at many schools/programs, so they've had to find new revenue streams. This is mostly foreign students and continuing education / executive programs, or "professional" degrees (MBA, law, medicine). None of these moves encourages deeper academic research.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#115

Post by skeeter2020 » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 3:18 PM UTC

aaplok wrote: post #20

The elephant in the room here is that perhaps the biggest difference between the two learning experiences that OP is describing is himself. He might just have discovered he is more mature at 30 than he was at 18...

My neighbour was telling me about how his 18-yr-old daughter was taking a liberal arts degree at a new-style sounding school. For a kid out of HS it sounded terrible, but to 40 yr-old me it sounded amazing as a second degree!

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#116

Post by skeeter2020 » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 3:19 PM UTC

firesteelrain wrote: post #57

aaplok wrote: post #20

The elephant in the room here is that perhaps the biggest difference between the two learning experiences that OP is describing is himself. He might just have discovered he is more mature at 30 than he was at 18...

This resonates with me. BS in Computer Science starting when 18. All very overwhelming. Graduated with 3.0 GPA. Twenty years later. More experienced, working as a software and systems engineer. Masters in Systems Engineering and achieved 4.0 GPA. College was easier.

Similar experience. Two things I think: 1. you figure out the system your first go-around, 2. you want it more the second time through.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#117

Post by aleph_minus_one » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 3:19 PM UTC

eitally wrote: post #94

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if I enjoy learning, there were absolutely courses that were just a waste of time. My university experience is somewhat different, and I believe whether this holds true or not depends a lot on the degree course: - In mathematics, there are barely any "filler courses". Basically all of them were interesting in their own right (even though because of your own interests, you will likely find some more exciting th…

I suspect even many math majors probably believe "general ed" required classes to be a waste of time. Point well taken, though: there are some subjects that do not lend themselves to editorializing or opinion. I majored in history & comparative religion as an undergrad and most of my lower level courses I'd consider to be "fact retention" efforts. Lots of reading, but not a lot of analysis or synthesis. I took mostly…

> I suspect even many math majors probably believe "general ed" required classes to be a waste of time.

In the German university system, there are in general no required "general ed" classes. :-)

(it is typically only required that you do some often prescribed classes in a minor subject that you can commonly choose from a typically pre-defined list by the faculty (but if you hate all of the suggestions from this pre-defined list, it is sometimes possible to choose other minor subject or classes, but this will typically involve more bureacracy). For example, when stuying mathematics, it is common to choose physics, computer science, economics or some engineering science as minor).

Any further general education classes (in particular foreign language courses) are completely optional - and it is not an uncommon complaint of students who have very broad interests that during a typical degree course, you have barely any time to attend classes outside of the prescribed syllabus.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#118

Post by whywhywhywhy » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 3:23 PM UTC

mettamage wrote: post #13

The annoying thing is that: when universities aren't toll gates and you actually learn something, then people don't believe you and you have "0 work experience". So often, I've had the experience with work that it just feels like a long elaborate lab and there really is not much of a difference. Whether I make Jupyter notebooks analyzing things in a computer lab or for colleagues, I still use the same skills. Whether…

Nah it's completely different and experience in a workplace isn't really about proving what you're describing it's about knowing someone else trusted this person to be able to deliver in a professional context which is very different from what is considered delivering in an academic context.

Also you have to keep in mind just how oversubscribed academic qualifications are now so you're more just placing yourself at the starting line and whats more important is what you did outside that institution.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#119

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 3:29 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #85

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct, but the fact that employers are being rational doesn't make them blameless. To answer your question is that I don't see any employers decoupling from credentialism because why would they? So I think any solution to that would require there has to be a cost associated with university requirements for job positions. A fee maybe? Unless the job legally requires the credential (e.g. engineer, lawyer, nur…

But this is just a tacit admission that a lot of jobs need the credential. And it's a slippery slope. Should, for instance, a chemist have the credential? It's easy to say, "No". Until you get another Bhopal. Basically you would start getting more and more fields demanding credentials for liability purposes over time. Some would be entirely justified, like chemist and biologist. Some would be tenuous in the extreme,…

There are absolutely jobs that require credentials and for good reasons that I fully support. I'm not talking about these jobs. It's the ones that require a credential, but the job duties do not involve the skillsets associated with that credential. An easy way to spot these is if the requirement is something like a 'bachelors degree'. Doesn't matter what field, you just have to have gone to university. This is BS requirement.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#120

Post by mettamage » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 3:29 PM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #118

mettamage wrote: post #13

The annoying thing is that: when universities aren't toll gates and you actually learn something, then people don't believe you and you have "0 work experience". So often, I've had the experience with work that it just feels like a long elaborate lab and there really is not much of a difference. Whether I make Jupyter notebooks analyzing things in a computer lab or for colleagues, I still use the same skills. Whether…

Nah it's completely different and experience in a workplace isn't really about proving what you're describing it's about knowing someone else trusted this person to be able to deliver in a professional context which is very different from what is considered delivering in an academic context. Also you have to keep in mind just how oversubscribed academic qualifications are now so you're more just placing yourself at t…

> it's about knowing someone else trusted this person to be able to deliver in a professional context which is very different from what is considered delivering in an academic context.

How is it different? When you work in motivated groups at uni you split the work and rely on each other to do your part at a high quality. That’s also true for real work. Often enough you depend on certain things that your team mate does like finishing some part of a codebase while you worked on the theoretical underpinnings of an exploit and drafted that code. And now you can place your code into her code and rowhammer via JS works now.

I just don’t see the difference. Oh, and my performance reviews are “we are really happy with your work”. I used to work as a SWE and now as a data analyst. It all feels like school to me.

> Also you have to keep in mind just how oversubscribed academic qualifications are now so you're more just placing yourself at the starting line and whats more important is what you did outside that institution.

I see that it’s oversubscribed.