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Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

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Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#111

Post by graemep »

enobrev wrote: post #49
xyzelement wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for your loss, and thank you for your perspective. >> Absolutely right. There is a certain cowardice in how we deal with death in the contemporary west. I never thought about it but it likely stems from loss of religion, like many other problems. If I see my life as insignificant in the chain of generations - as a conduit between ancestors and descendants - and believe in the soul at least as a metaphor - then…

I'm surprised by this take, simply because of my own experience, where the further I've gotten from religion over a very long time, the less significant I've found death. Not having "answers" to what comes next has never been a weight for me - at least not since I was a child. Death being a completion, or a finality, is freeing; The end of what has been and what I hope continues to be a wonderful journey. The only we…

I find that surprising in turn! What were the beliefs you had around death?

I can sort of see why you found it less significant, but in monotheistic religions it is still pretty final. It is still the end of the one life you get, even if it is also the entry into something completely different and better.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#112

Post by Agraillo »

glitchc wrote: post #44

> There’s no modern cultural framework for dealing with death. Indeed. We used to have religion to help us deal with it. In our modern world driven by science, death is just the absence of life. Since all (physical, chemical) reactions have ceased, science has nothing more to say about it. In trying to deal with the ills of organized religion, we may have also disposed of its benefits. Very sorry for your loss.

> science has nothing more to say about it

Science has also given us time machine surrogates - photos and videos. I understand this doesn’t work for everyone and can sometimes make things harder, but for me, seeing our common past brings back the smile to my face.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#114

Post by graemep »

rdiddly wrote: post #73
xyzelement wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for your loss, and thank you for your perspective. >> Absolutely right. There is a certain cowardice in how we deal with death in the contemporary west. I never thought about it but it likely stems from loss of religion, like many other problems. If I see my life as insignificant in the chain of generations - as a conduit between ancestors and descendants - and believe in the soul at least as a metaphor - then…

Which is probably why religion was developed in the first place, for its comforting effects, as a balm, a bravery-enhancer, a coping strategy for dealing with inevitable death. I think the way we deal with death nowadays has more to do with arrogance or hubris, coupled with wishful thinking. We're used to thinking we control things, and can get anything we want. One thing useful from the religions was having a health…

> Which is probably why religion was developed in the first place, for its comforting effects, as a balm, a bravery-enhancer, a coping strategy for dealing with inevitable death.

It maybe a factor, but I do not think it was the main one. Death is still very hard to cope with, regardless of religious belief. There are other things behind religious belief, mostly experiences.

> I think the way we deal with death nowadays has more to do with arrogance or hubris, coupled with wishful thinking

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#115

Post by abandonliberty »

legacynl wrote: post #107

I'd just like to clear up a misconception that people seem to have about mental healthcare. Getting a diagnosis isn't related to the 'severity' of the thing you're experiencing. But rather how you're dealing with it, and if it requires professional help to work through. Keyword being 'requires'. Even if you grief a lot, if you're dealing with it yourself you will not get a diagnosis. If grief makes you isolate yourse…

I know someone who was concerned about depression, and went to get checked. The diagnosis was normal. They were having an appropriate emotional response to very challenging situations.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#116

Post by graemep »

pizzathyme wrote: post #33
graemep wrote: post #2

There is a problem with rigid medical definitions. There is a huge difference between the author of this, a young pregnant woman losing her husband, and say, something like a middle aged person losing an elderly parent (as I did earlier this year). Of course it will take her far longer to recover (if at all). I would guess her grief is not "disordered" though. As she says she functions - she works, she looks after he…

I'm so sorry for your loss. I agree with what you say about "disordered", the language is hostile. In a less morbid area, I feel the same way about ADHD - "attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder". For some people this is problematic, but others can function fine and happily with this. In those cases, why is it a "disorder"? Why can't it just be "how some people are"?

> In those cases, why is it a "disorder"? Why can't it just be "how some people are"?

It often is:

> It can be helpful to think of ADHD not just as a deficit or disorder but as a ‘difference’.

Especially as it seems to come with positive traits! It goes on to list focus, responding well in a crisis and creativity as common ADHD traits.

https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mental-health/mental-illnesses-and...

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#117

Post by xyzelement »

krapp wrote: post #101
xyzelement wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't believe that. I valued children just as much when I was an atheist as when I became religion. What's significant though is the PREVALENT opinion. 100% of my religious friends want and have kids, while the majority of my secular friends do not. I work in FAANG and previously in finance, so my peers are people who can certainly afford kids and are positioned to take care of them - and yet literally most are…

>What's significant though is the PREVALENT opinion. 100% of my religious friends want and have kids, while the majority of my secular friends do not. Do all of your religious friends subscribe to the same religion? If so, does this religion proscribe having children and raising families as a necessary, or desired, component of the faith or community? Because you could be confusing religion and culture here. Secular…

I am not sure "culture" and "religion" are separable in the long run but I don't think that aligns with the point you're making.

Religious people see "be fruitful and multiply" as a literal command from G-d and one of the fundamental points of religion. So while religious culture can evolve, the evolution of this attitude isn't a flexible point.

On the flip side, secular culture has no intrinsic reason for "family values" - which is why, I think, atheist culture over time devolves to childlessness - because reasons "why not" are more immediate and in your face, vs "why yes."

So yes it's "culture" but what the culture is is obviously determined by your underlying beliefs and that which you consider eternal and that which you consider negotiable.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#118

Post by GreaterThanSign »

ratelimitsteve wrote: post #63
igleria wrote: post #14

> Sometimes, I’ll go ahead and dial Jake’s phone number in case the laws of entropy have changed, and he picks up I should not cry at work but damn, I want to.

The worst part of 5 years and 2 months mourning my baby brother was the day that the dream got me. I dreamt about him a lot but I'm a shit screenwriter so the dreams were always cliched garbage with obvious meaning. Stuff like "We're standing on a bridge that I can't cross, and he says he needs to cross it but I'm trying to convince him not to". The kind of stuff you write for a high school creative writing class tha…

The quote "Grief is love with no where to go" has always been fully embodied in my dreams. Since my Dad died I have dreams where he would appear and I would jubilantly (and sometimes angrily) greet him with "Where have you been?! I've been looking everywhere for you!". And it is true, I look for him everywhere.

Waking up from those is so painful but I am grateful I still get to see and hug him once in a while.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#119

Post by JohnMakin »

These are very typical and normal thoughts when dealing with grief. The thing is, it's a misconception that it "goes away" or becomes lessened. It doesn't, and that's the honest truth, it will always be there. Over time though it becomes less unbearable, and for me anyway, 10+ years removed from it, has become such a core part of my personality I'm unsure of how or who I'd be without it. Not that I prefer it, it's just become ingrained.

"Time heals all wounds" is the biggest trap I think these thoughts are driven from. The simple and difficult truth at this stage of grief is accepting that yes, things are probably always going to feel like this. Yes, when other people have moved on you won't have. Yes, it makes people uncomfortable and you're going to have to learn to navigate those situations gracefully. The hopeful message though is that you adapt to it and it becomes less distressful over time. If it doesn't, and significantly impacts your life years later, is where I think diagnoses come into play.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#120

Post by KittenInABox »

fleshmonad wrote: post #99
KittenInABox wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my understanding ADHD is one of the few conditions that is extremely well studied and consistently appears to be a certain % of the population regardless of nationality with very strongly correlated negative outcomes with their suite of symptoms. I'm talking addition, obesity, and a shortened lifespan directly related to their ADHD. This seems like a disorder to me. If someone has attention difficulties and can fu…

Function in what context? I have been diagnosed with ADHD at age seven. I have had many checkups and am currently medicated. I can tell you that I wouldn't need to if I didn't have to work a menial wageslave job. Interestingly I can focus perfectly fine when doing interesting stuff without medication and it has always been this way. What you are saying is that there is some proper definition of disorder, which would…

And what I know with ADHD is that the incapacity to handle dumb meetings is just one definition of functioning. Maybe you don't need medication to clean yourself enough to prevent skin issues, prevent addiction to substances, compulsive criminal behavior, avoid hoarding behaviors, have a safe living space, have the capacity to maintain friendships/avoid loneliness, engage with social interactions in a mutually respectful manner etc. But most people I know with ADHD severely struggle with at least one of the above and I consider that functioning, not just holding down a job. My understanding is not on the level of "can you do bullshit work" but it is "can you clean your dishes before they stink" and "can you respond to being turned down by a girl without blowing up your life".
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