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Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

businessinsider.com

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Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#111

Post by izacus »

milesvp wrote: post #64
sublimefire wrote: post #16

It mentions this was based on some “data” (in emailsto employees) that it will yield better output but I somehow doubt it. I wonder what happens with the stock. It sort of makes it worse for the teams that are distributed and harms collab between sites in different zones like Europe/Asia and US/Europe. When you are working from home it is easy to stay later or start earlier and join calls. If you are in the office th…

It’s a common thing here on HN to believe that remote is superior for productivity, and I’m always reminded of Richard Hammond’s observations about open door vs closed door coworkers. He noticed over time that the closed door workers were more productive. He also noticed that the closed door workers were less impactful in their fields years later. His were observations in R&D settings, but I suspect they can be extra…

It's worth observing that when remoters talk about "productivity", they talk about their personal ability of chugging through tickets and not overall team productivity which includes a lot of teaching, mentoring, conversations and getting on the same page.

So yeah, what's happening is that senior folks "productivity" as they perceive it has risen while the output of whole teams over time suffered.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#112

Post by sharts »

neilv wrote: post #89

> Microsoft's new approach is the latest sign of the company increasing performance pressure on employees. It has fired thousands of employees deemed low performers this year and introduced a new performance improvement plan meant to exit low performers more quickly. Claims who? These also sound like typical sketchy headcount reduction tactics. Also, it's throwing employees under the bus, because the company is tarri…

While sketchy and total crap move on MS. What recourse do employees really have?

MS likely consulted with their army of lawyers before pulling this.

Actions might be crappy but not illegal. Not a lawyer but employers are usually allowed to dictate the terms of the employment agreements and requiring someone to go into an office to work can be one of them. Even changing from permanent remote to onsite at a later time seems like another relatively protected decision.

Unless someone somewhere higher up is on the record saying something like “Oh yeah let’s make them come into the office to actually make it really crappy for them so they leave on their own” I doubt any reasonably reliable legal case can be made.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#113

Post by nonameiguess »

This is going to lead to these abstract discussions of subjective perceptual "productivity" as it always does, but by the actual economic definition of labor productivity, revenue per employee, Microsoft has gone from $143 billion with 163,000 in 2020 ($877,000 per head) to $282 billion with 228,000 ($1.24 million per head) so far this year. They've become the 2nd largest company in the world by market cap, in large part specifically because Microsoft employees are so economically productive.

It says a lot about a team when they win, and instead of rewarding the players that got them the win, they do shit like this.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#114

Post by aaronbrethorst »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #57
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that any GitHub employee within 50 miles of a Microsoft office will be expected to commute.

Given that all GitHub teams are remote, the chance of having a team member at the same office is approximately 0. What's the point of commuting if you're not co-located with team members?

I think you’re trying to logic a situation that is not logical.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#115

Post by ryandrake »

Magmalgebra wrote: post #100
pm90 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Richard Hamming . And the essay is here: https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html . As you point out, Its important to note that Hamming makes this observation specifically in the domain of research which requires a lot of collaboration between people, and is enhanced by interaction with other people doing research . Most standard software engineering jobs don’t require that kind of research activi…

> Most standard software engineering jobs don’t require that kind of research activity (although it does require some; product development is a creative process) This seems to describe what good engineers above the senior level do. Certainly everyone with a PhD I work with who rose through the ranks said that being very senior was a lot like being a good researcher - albeit with much more pressure on execution.

I think it totally depends on the job. It's like a process running on a CPU. I've seen software development roles that are "batch processes," where the developer goes into a cave to crank through his tasks uninterrupted, and then emerges in a week to deliver the results. And others that are "interactive, event-driven processes," where there is a lot of back and forth between product owners, UX, and other stakeholders, and lots of iteration and refinement. And then there is a whole spectrum in between! One size doesn't necessarily fit all development styles.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#116

Post by SilverElfin »

lobf wrote: post #96
titanomachy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> issues with safety on public transportation Do you know the stats on what percentage of transit rides result in some sort of assault or theft? It’s always felt pretty safe to me, although you certainly do end up sharing space with some very disadvantaged people. My issue with US transit is mostly speed and convenience. Even with the traffic it usually takes 3x as long to get somewhere by transit, unless my destinat…

I know the stats and they're absolutely damning. https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics... You're orders of magnitude more likely to die in a car vs on a bus.

Deaths are one problem, but they may also not be distributed evenly. Some cities or states have more issues on public transit than others. But also you can still be a victim of assault, harassment, theft, and other issues on public transit. Many of these issues also go unreported or don’t get counted in official stats if not accompanied by a formal police report or whatever. So it doesn’t tell the full story of what people’s real experiences are.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#117

Post by neilv »

sharts wrote: post #112
neilv wrote: post #89

> Microsoft's new approach is the latest sign of the company increasing performance pressure on employees. It has fired thousands of employees deemed low performers this year and introduced a new performance improvement plan meant to exit low performers more quickly. Claims who? These also sound like typical sketchy headcount reduction tactics. Also, it's throwing employees under the bus, because the company is tarri…

While sketchy and total crap move on MS. What recourse do employees really have? MS likely consulted with their army of lawyers before pulling this. Actions might be crappy but not illegal. Not a lawyer but employers are usually allowed to dictate the terms of the employment agreements and requiring someone to go into an office to work can be one of them. Even changing from permanent remote to onsite at a later time…

To non-lawyer me, this sounds like something for which lawyers have a term:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal

If I've heard of this angle, I assume that lawyers know many angles that may apply.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#118

Post by SilverElfin »

dml2135 wrote: post #84
SilverElfin wrote: post #27

Terrible. Especially given that the Seattle area has terrible traffic and also issues with safety on public transportation (like many other cities in America). What is the point exactly of getting workers into an office just so they can be on Zoom calls (or Teams, in this case)? This seems a lot like what Amazon was accused of - a way to shake out some workers and get them to quit when they cannot rearrange their lif…

I would challenge you to find statistics that show that any public transit system in the U.S. is more dangerous than driving.

How are you defining ‘dangerous’? Are you counting deaths? Or also things like assault, robbery, sexual harassment, drug abuse (second hand smoke or needles), etc? What about crimes that take place around transit but not on transit itself, like crimes near a train station or whatever? I think it’s easy to construct narratives that are misleading both with data and without data. My point is simply that for many people, they feel safer in private transit and would prefer it. I see some other people here talking about some shuttle network Microsoft runs - presumably that is also a private option and it likely exists because public transit isn’t something many Microsoft employees want to deal with.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#119

Post by roadside_picnic »

bluedino wrote: post #81
roadside_picnic wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> play video games and jackin' off during work hours. Most of the hardest working remote people I've known, and I've worked remote at over 5 companies across two decades, often don't work standard hours. I honestly don't see the problem with someone gaming at 2pm if they're also making sure shit gets deployed at midnight. I also have found that anytime I show up in an actual office it's hilarious how little work actu…

> I honestly don't see the problem with someone gaming at 2pm It depends on if other team members need to be able to reach out to this person at 2pm

What if a team member needs you at 12am?

If there's a need for "core business hours" those can be established. My most recent company was evenly distributed around the globe so needing someone at 2pm PST is not much different than needing someone at 12am PST.

The vast majority of companies I've worked at remote have a strong async culture and are better for it. With some obvious exceptions, if you need a response in 15 minutes there's something wrong with your planning.

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