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Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

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111–120 of 498 posts

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#111
There's also the questionable copyright/IP angle.

As an analogy, can you imagine being a startup that hired a developer, and months later finding out the bulk of the new Web app they "coded" for you was actually copy&pasted open source code, loosely obfuscated, which they were passing it off as something they developed, and to which the company had IP rights?

You'd immediately convene the cofounders and a lawyer, about how to make this have never happened.

First you realize that you need to hand the lawyer the evidence (against the employee), and otherwise remove all traces of that code and activity from the company.

Simultaneously, you need to get real developers started rushing to rewrite everything without obvious IP taint.

Then one of you will delicately ask whether firing and legal action against the employee is sufficient, or whether the employee needs to sleep with the fishes to keep them quiet.

The lawyer will say this kind of situation isn't within the scope of their practice, but here's the number of a person they refer to only as 'the specialist'.

Soon, not only are you losing the startup, and the LLC is being pierced to go after your personal assets, but you're also personally going to prison. Because you were also too cheap to pay the professional fee for 'the specialist', and you asked ChatGPT to make the employee have a freak industrial shredder accident.

All this because you tried to cheap out, and spend $20 or $200 on getting some kind of code to appear in your repo, while pretending you didn't know where it came from.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#112
How widely is AI adopted in the wider IT industry anyways? I imagine $200 per month subscription isn't that popular with people refusing to pay for their IDEs and going with free alternatives instead. And month worth of free tier of AI agent can be spent in two intense evenings.

So who pays for AIs for developers? Mostly corpos. And the speed of individual developer was never a limiting factor in corpos. Average corporate development was always 10 times slower than indie. So even doubling it won't make any impression.

I don't know if I'm faster with AI at a specific task, but I know that I'm doing things I wouldn't touch because I hate the tedium. And I'm doing them while cooking and eating dinner and thinking about wider context and next things to come. So for me it feels worth it.

I think it might be something like with cars and safety. Any car safety improvements are going to be offset by the drivers driving faster and more recklessly. So maybe any speed improvements that AI might make for the project is nullified by developers doing things they would just skip without it.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#113

I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, but the OP should also be looking at product launch websites like ProductHunt, where there are tens to hundreds of vibe coded SaaS apps listed daily. From my experience, it's much easier to get an LLM to generate code for a React/Tailwind CSS web app than a mobile app, and that's why we're seeing so many of these apps showing up in the SaaS space.

I actually just looked, if anything the PH data supports his theory, assuming the website I found is scraping this data accurately.

In fact it looks like there were less products launched last month on PH than the same period a year ago.

https://hunted.space/monthly-overview

It's a bit hard as they're not summing by months but it looks like less to me quickly scanning it.

And as Claude Code has only really been out 3/4 months you'd be expecting launches to be shooting up week-by-week right about now as all the vibe products get finished.

They're not, see the 8 week graph:

https://hunted.space/stats

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#114
post #9

Multiple things can be true at the same time: 1. LLMs do not increase general developer productivity by 10x across the board for general purpose tasks selected at random. 2. LLMs dramatically increases productivity for a limited subset of tasks 3. LLMs can be automated to do busy work and although they may take longer in terms of clock time than a human, the work is effectively done in the background. LLMs can get me…

> Stop using a hammer on nails.

sorry, what am I supposed to use on nails?

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#115
post #9

Multiple things can be true at the same time: 1. LLMs do not increase general developer productivity by 10x across the board for general purpose tasks selected at random. 2. LLMs dramatically increases productivity for a limited subset of tasks 3. LLMs can be automated to do busy work and although they may take longer in terms of clock time than a human, the work is effectively done in the background. LLMs can get me…

> LLMs can be automated to do busy work and although they may take longer in terms of clock time than a human, the work is effectively done in the background.

What is this supposed busy work that can be done in the background unsupervised?

I think it's about time for the AI pushers to be absolutely clear about the actual specific tasks they are having success with. We're all getting a bit tired of the vagueness and hand waving.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#116
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Setting up a scaffolding for a new website? LLMs are amazing at it. So amazing that every single stat showed by the author in the article has been flat at best, despite all being based on new development rather than work on existing code-bases.

Maybe the world has run out of interesting websites to create. That they are created faster doesn't necessarily imply they'll be created more frequently.

Of course if that's the case (and it well may be), then THAT is the reason for tech layoffs. Not AI. If anything, it means AI came too late.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#117
post #73

The answer is that we're making it right now. AI didn't speed me up at all until agents got good enough, which was April/May of this year. Just today I built a shovelware CLI that exports iMessage archives into a standalone website export. Would have taken me weeks. I'll probably have it out as a homebrew formula in a day or two. I'm working on an iOS app as well that's MUCH further along than it would be if I hand-r…

> AI didn't speed me up at all until agents got good enough, which was April/May of this year.

That was 5 months ago, which is 6 years in 10x time.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#118

There's a relatively monotonous task in software engineering that pretty much everyone working no a legacy c/c++ code base has had to face: static analysis and compiler warnings. That seems about as boring and routine of an operation that exists. As simple as can be. I've seen this task farmed out to interns paid barely anything just to get it done. My question to HN is... can LLMs do this? Can they convert all the u…

if you have a static analysis tool that gives a list of problems to fix, and something like a unit test suite that makes sure nothing got badly broken due to a sloppy edit, then yes. If you don’t have these things, you’ll accumulate mistakes

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah, I love building one off tools with it. I am working on a game mod with a friend, we are hand writing the code that runs when you play it, but we vibe code all sorts of dev tools to help us test and iterate on it faster. Do internal, narrow purpose dev tools count as shipped code?

This seems to be a common thread. For personal projects where most details aren't important, they are good at meeting the couple things that are important to you and filling in the rest with reasonable, mostly-good-enough guesses. But the more detailed the requirements are, the less filler code there is, and the more each line of code matters. In those situations it's probably faster to type the line of code than to…

I don't think so, although I think at that point experience heavily comes into play. With GPT-5 especially, I can basically point cursor/codex at a repo and say "refactor this to this pattern" and come back 25 minutes later to a pretty much impeccable result. In fact that's become my favourite past time lately.

I linked some examples higher up, but I've been maintaining a lot of packages that I started slightly before chatgpt and then refactored and worked on as I progressively moved to the "entirely AI generated" workflow I have today.

I don't think it's an easy skill (not saying that to make myself look good, I spent an ungodly amount of time exploring programming with LLMs and still do), akin to thinking at a strategic level vs at a "code" level.

Certain design patterns also make it much easier to deal with LLM code: state reducers (redux/zustand for example), event-driven architectures, component-based design systems, building many CLI tools that the agent can invoke to iterate and correct things, as do certain "tools" like sqlite/tmux (by that I mean just telling the LLM "btw you can use tmux/sqlite", you allow it to pass hurdles that would otherwise just make it spiral into slop-ratatouille).

I also think that a language like go was a really good coincidence, because it is so amenable to LLM-ification.

Re: Where's the shovelware? Why AI coding claims don't add up

#120
post #73

The answer is that we're making it right now. AI didn't speed me up at all until agents got good enough, which was April/May of this year. Just today I built a shovelware CLI that exports iMessage archives into a standalone website export. Would have taken me weeks. I'll probably have it out as a homebrew formula in a day or two. I'm working on an iOS app as well that's MUCH further along than it would be if I hand-r…

It's amazing how whenever criticisms pop up the responses for the last 3 years have been "well you aren't using , it's finally good!"
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