Live data from Hacker News

What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

betabeat.com

111–120 of 127 posts

Re: What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

#111

There is more to 4chan than just /b/. Yes, /b/ seems to be the only reason people hear or know about 4chan. But /b/ has done this sort of stuff in the past for massive 'lulz', and they have also stopped stuff like animal cruelty, or even that one kid who decided to post a pic of his feet in people's salad (which got him fired). Good times here, http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tom-green-raids There's another 50 boards o…

Yeah, it's crap to be cruel to animals, but people? Do whatever you want to 'em! 4chan as a whole may have redeeming value (I'm not involved, so I can't say), but to the rest of the world, 4chan == /b.

To be fair the animals didn't hurt anyone and were tortured and killed

She was trying to shill her porn site and knowingly poked a hornets nest

Bit of a difference

Re: What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if religion is such an important impediment to moral responsibility to animals. I think capitalism is more important namely because of factory farming. Most people don't want to know about it and wouldn't stop eating meat or pay twice as much to avoid it. Factory farming is completely hidden from people in cities, so people don't empathize with it as much.

http://www.animalsandsociety.org/assets/library/745_s3.pdf

Yes I saw that and I'm saying that correlation might not be so important in practice, because however they might profess to feel about animal rights, most people will still insist on eating meat without wanting to know where it comes from.

Re: What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

#113
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because humans have such a capacity for learning, instincts would serve no purpose. Instincts are rigid and humans on the contrary are very adaptable. It appears to me that the scientific consensus is that there are no human instincts, but if you believe otherwise why don't you cite an example?

Mating. The route to get there becomes more flexible due to our adaptability but the desire to have sex is instinctual.

Well again I'd say that's not an instinct, just like hunger it's a desire. An instinct is a very specific pre-programmed behavior that can't be overridden, a desire or reflex doesn't fit that description.

Re: What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

#114
post #32
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating two independent ideas: was it wise to behave as she did, and was 4chan's response OK. The answer to both is "no". It was unwise for her to do what she did, but that does not justify the response. Don't accuse people of blaming the victim for pointing out her unwise behavior. If I go for a walk in a minefield, it sucks that my leg got blown off...but I could have perhaps exercised better judgment re…

Spoken like someone who has never been slut-shamed. Or had his/her leg blown off by a landmine. People don't actually get maimed because they stupidly walked into a minefield. They get maimed because someone put a minefield where they live and grew up, and they can't live life at all without being in constant danger. Women don't get slut-shamed because they did something to deserve it, they get slut-shamed because th…

> Spoken like someone who has never been slut-shamed. Or had his/her leg blown off by a landmine. People don't actually get maimed because they stupidly walked into a minefield. They get maimed because someone put a minefield where they live and grew up, and they can't live life at all without being in constant danger.

If we don't expect people to exercise "common sense" in trying to avoid becoming the victims of circumstance, then why do we install locks on cars and homes? Missing locks on a house doesn't make it acceptable to steal things from inside of it, yet we don't in general rely on that social and legal rule alone.

Lacey doesn't deserve the treatment she's been getting but it's entirely appropriate to point out that the response could have been foreseen by anyone with experience with 4chan's /b/ (which includes Lacey, if she's to be believed). Any other argument is of the same intellectual logic as trying to prevent teen pregnancy by not teaching teens about sex (which is even worse as a method than abstinence education!)

This should be a "teachable moment" for other teenage or young entrepreneurs trying to drum up public interest in their enterprise by poking 4chan. It certainly shouldn't be hidden from public view just to make it look like it was a completely random attack on /b/'s part. People need to be educated about what can happen.

Re: What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

#115
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infants have no ability to care for their parents. Do you truly argue that a child, when they become able, has no responsibility to take care of their parents, when they become infirm? And metaphor need not hew closely to semantics, but having is, linguistically, a ditransitive operation-- technically stative, but the difference isn't important here. I may have responsibility, and I may have responsibility toward you…

That infants have no such ability was the whole point of the example. Children do have such responsibilities when they have the ability. have is actually a transitive word, not ditransitive. An example of the latter is give: A gives B to C. I disagree that there's metaphor here, commutativity is a very technical term and it relates to operations such as addition. So in fact I do think it's relevant that have is stati…

I'm sure I can make the case that bears are the indirect object of my having responsibility -- or rather are not -- but if you prefer, I withdraw the metaphor. The point is that it goes both ways :)

Re: What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That infants have no such ability was the whole point of the example. Children do have such responsibilities when they have the ability. have is actually a transitive word, not ditransitive. An example of the latter is give: A gives B to C. I disagree that there's metaphor here, commutativity is a very technical term and it relates to operations such as addition. So in fact I do think it's relevant that have is stati…

I'm sure I can make the case that bears are the indirect object of my having responsibility -- or rather are not -- but if you prefer, I withdraw the metaphor. The point is that it goes both ways :)

Ah I see now why you would call it ditransitivite. I believe that you would call it an argument/complement to 'responsibility', as 'have' is not an inherently ditransitive verb.

The point about whether it goes both ways is a matter of opinion I think. I feel that humans have an obligation to treat animals well, not necessarily because of how they would feel or their obligations to us, but because it makes humans look bad not to. Kind of like how a gentleman is supposed to be polite regardless of the situation.

Re: What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

#117
post #114
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken like someone who has never been slut-shamed. Or had his/her leg blown off by a landmine. People don't actually get maimed because they stupidly walked into a minefield. They get maimed because someone put a minefield where they live and grew up, and they can't live life at all without being in constant danger. Women don't get slut-shamed because they did something to deserve it, they get slut-shamed because th…

> Spoken like someone who has never been slut-shamed. Or had his/her leg blown off by a landmine. People don't actually get maimed because they stupidly walked into a minefield. They get maimed because someone put a minefield where they live and grew up, and they can't live life at all without being in constant danger. If we don't expect people to exercise "common sense" in trying to avoid becoming the victims of cir…

I don't think this accurately characterizes the article and the discussion. Saying that this is a "teachable moment" is sugar-coating the character of the responses here. I'm not arguing that the agency of the harassment victim, and what should be "common sense" precautions, can't be discussed at all. But it's a distraction and a cop-out, and it fits a destructive pattern. When our first response, collectively, is to dismiss the person whose life is still being actively dismantled with "well that's what happens," then all we're doing is blaming the victim. We talk about what the victim of this harassment campaign should have done differently, but not about what the perpetrators should have done differently. "Common sense" should dictate that you don't try to get someone fired and harass them relentlessly in this way because they took a jab at you on the internet.

I don't think that the basic facts of what she did to "provoke this" are in dispute, at least if we take the article's account at face value. What I'm saying is that it's stupid that we don't talk about the nature of the harassment. That's what's really hidden from the discussion.

The peanut-gallery reaction to things like this ALWAYS centers on what the victim did, and there's an extra edge to it when the victim is a woman. (see the later "clarification" by the original commenter in this thread -- why use that language instead of "she definitely deserved it"?) And when somebody points out that we're blaming the victim, everyone's ready to jump in and make sure it's clear that that's appropriate this time. Well, there's almost always someone arguing that it's appropriate "this time."

I'd like this to be a teachable moment about how we excuse and perpetuate this behavior by focusing solely on what the victim could have done differently. That starts with somebody saying "hey, you're blaming the victim" and it'd be nice to get to "why focusing on the victim is a distraction from the actual problem" and then "how and why is this kind of thing happening and what do we do about it?" but we don't get to go there in this forum. It's trivialized to the point where even suggesting that it could be an alternative course of discussion is snarked at (see other responses). Yes, I'd argue that talking about the intersection of anonymity and technology that enables and encourages wanton and massively effective harassment campaigns is what I'd like to see from a hacker news discussion. (I'll put my thoughts on that in another comment, if anyone's still paying attention a day later.)

I got dinged for talking about the real nature of how a woman's sexuality is used both as a weapon of harassment and an excuse for that harassment, and for pointing out that hypothetical landmine analogies have no bearing on reality. Well, that seems a lot more relevant to me than trying to construct a thought experiment proving that the victim of this harassment had agency in order to defend a useless thats-what-happens comment. And while comparing it to how we lock up and take precautions in general is entirely reasonable in isolation, the comments here aren't isolated and they mostly add up to "she provoked it, end of discussion." The pattern of people responding that way reinforces the culture that accepts this as normal. I'm not ignorant of the argument that risks can't be entirely mitigated, or that anonymous groups also do good things. But the perpetrators of this harassment are liability-distributed and unaccountable in ways that individuals and even organized groups aren't. That's interesting, and scary, and we're not talking about it.

Re: What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The good news is Anonymous, representing the hive mind of the most primitive human desires before they've been filtered out by one's conscience, has a set attention span. They will eventually stop in about a week or two. It will get old to them and they'll move on.

I would bet their attention span is more like a power law distribution. While the vast majority will taper off over a couple of weeks, the long tail will be there to make sure the victim gets whats coming for an "appropriate" amount of time. My assumption is that it is just like "real life" where something might be big drama in the family for a week or two. After that, only one or two people will still talk about it,…

That's an interesting hypothesis, and worth looking into. If the group is a graph connected by people becoming aware of the campaign, participating in it, and forgetting about it, then there's a feedback loop that should taper off in a predictable way. This would gel with what seems to happen.

And as you point out, there's also a moment where the event becomes calcified, earning an entry into some wiki that records the biggest campaigns against individuals. This also seems to have the effect of permanently branding the individual so that if they do anything else perceived as a violation by a member of the group, a significant chunk of the network can reactivate quickly for a second round.

There's also a thin line between observation and participation. Someone might be passively aware of what's going on from reading 4chan or seeing it here, and they might comment, and the comment (maybe a suggestion) could galvanize the network to act in some way (call her employer). Each individual who does this may feel moral responsibility only for a trivial fraction of the damage. "All I did was make one phone call. I'm not responsible for what other people do."

Add that to a good technological mechanism for acting anonymously, and we get what we're seeing: a huge campaign of harassment unencumbered by moral and social concerns. Somewhat different from a family drama but not totally so. I'm sure there are sociological studies on how "shunning" works, but if you could get a hook into the numbers here, maybe there's a pattern that has general properties that subsume cases where people are more accountable and less anonymous.

The other question that interests me is whether there's a point in the "ramping up" side of the distribution where an active intervention of some kind can mute it.

The only criteria for participation in Anonymous, for example, is a commitment to the "lulz" at hand. If you're not in the current campaign, you're not provably in Anonymous. For example, just after the name began to be appropriated by people at the edges who were mostly interested in targeting scientology, and described in the news as a good campaign against a cult, we saw an attack on an epileptic support forum. This had the effect of purging people who claimed to be Anonymous but morally disavowed it. That's synonymous (hmm) with splintering the group, but the criterion of doing it solely for laughs was retained by one group and lost by the other. It'd be reasonable to call the former the "core." So there IS a form of accountability in Anonymous, and it operates strictly in the moral dimension of the action.

That would imply that both the ramping up and ramping down of a campaign is exactly the same as the size of the group (as defined by devotion to "lulz") at any given moment. Perhaps tautological, but different from a family. Apply this generally to all anonymous distributed groups. It also implies that an action that subverts the moral identity of the group can subvert a campaign. If you do something so reprehensible that a large contingent of the individuals in the campaign are compelled to disavow it, then you could effectively kill the distributed campaign. Is that a net win? Probably only if you convince enough people that you did it without actually doing it. Another possibility is to engineer a compelling distraction that draws in members of the campaign. But it seems to me that with enough knowledge, an individual or a smaller group can actively and deliberately affect the tapering off, either through manipulation of attention span or manipulation of moral alignment.

Re: What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

#119
post #47
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not even dangerously close to blaming the victim; that is blaming the victim.

Please, take that feminist rapeculture nonsense out of here. Nobody is holding her responsible for all she's going through and nobody is the blame but the anonymous people on /b/. But she really should have known better. It's interesting how quick people jump on shaming the victim blamers when it's a women being harassed but nobody is there to reassure me it is not my fault when I stick my hand in boiling water. You…

Boiling water holds no culpability. Soldiers shouldn't get blamed for being shot, drag queen's aren't asking for harassment, police officers shouldn't be blamed for getting killed in the line of duty. Victim blaming puts the onus on someone who didn't make the decision to act in the entirely inappropriate manner.

We can even condemn behavior without justifying or excusing extra-judicial violence. We just have to do it not in the context of discussing the violence they later suffered. We can discuss the injustice of an invasion, but the funeral of a fallen soldier isn't the place for it.

Re: What Happens When You Taunt 4Chan: Story of Lacey Vicich

#120
post #117
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spoken like someone who has never been slut-shamed. Or had his/her leg blown off by a landmine. People don't actually get maimed because they stupidly walked into a minefield. They get maimed because someone put a minefield where they live and grew up, and they can't live life at all without being in constant danger. If we don't expect people to exercise "common sense" in trying to avoid becoming the victims of cir…

I don't think this accurately characterizes the article and the discussion. Saying that this is a "teachable moment" is sugar-coating the character of the responses here. I'm not arguing that the agency of the harassment victim, and what should be "common sense" precautions, can't be discussed at all. But it's a distraction and a cop-out, and it fits a destructive pattern. When our first response, collectively, is to…

These are some interesting points.

You're absolutely right that the anonymous and distributed nature of 4chan means that the "/b/" entity can react to perceived slights (trolling, mockery) in a radically disproportionate way.

If the individual provoker annoys /b/ with "strength" 1, and (e.g.) 10 000 /b/ denizens are each sufficiently annoyed to push back at the provoker with equal "strength" 1, that means that the reaction to the individual is profoundly out of proportion to the original attack. By a factor of thousands.

It's like burning someone's house down with their family inside because they dented your bumper without leaving a note. But as you point out, few individuals were all that nasty - the culpability is distributed across a large, anonymous mob, with a few critical nodes, such as those persons who leaked the individual's contact information, or made prank phone calls to her work place.

The crowd / mob dynamics gives massive strength to the anonymous group that is absolutely unmatched by the individual. Mob dynamics in physical space are understood well enough, and police have had various means of dealing with large groups of disorganized people in town squares and so forth. This is not the case for internet-distributed mobs, which are still relatively new.

The process is like leaderless, decentralized, crowdsourcing of cruelty (cf. "Anonymous: because none of us is as cruel as all of us"). And of course, the greater the crowd, the greater the possibility of someone recognizing the individual victim - which is exactly what happened in this case. Once this happens, with a name and identifying characteristics, the positive feedback loop and mob excitement can escalate and boil over.

You may already have seen this video about a thought experiment about the potential power of distributed, internet-powered mobs and the way things could go wrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyMdOT8YJgY

Post reply on HN