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Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

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Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#111

Post by zdragnar »

bloomca wrote: post #107
rootusrootus wrote: post #64

If there was more than a duopoly in smartphones, I'd say Apple should be able to have whatever horrible app policy they want, so long as it is clearly communicated to everyone including customers. Let the market decide. But that's not where we are. I think it makes sense to treat both Apple and Google as de facto monopolies with respect to the smartphone market, and impose some regulation on what they have to allow a…

Is it allowed to charge more in storefronts which take these cuts? Why nobody does that? What about Steam? Can a publisher sell a game for ~$45 in their store and $60 in Steam, or is it against some TOC?

Pretty much none of the stores allow that. If my memory is right, Apple and Steam don't, though Google might be a bit more permissive in their store.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#112

Post by bloomca »

zdw wrote: post #74
jchw wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole situation is frustrating. Even if there were eight or twelve companies all competing fairly, I'm not sure it would matter: if Apple's approach makes hand-over-fist more money, even though it is much worse for consumers in many regards, it has the chance to unfairly win and for vendors that follow Apple's lead to out-compete vendors that don't. (Don't imagine this world, try to find the parallels you've per…

"much worse for customers" is relative. While in no ways perfect, Apple's walled garden gets rid of a huge amount of the enshittification found on other platforms, and makes it so that downloading a random app is relatively safe and unlikely to nuke your phone, steal your data, etc. Yes all the "allow access to location/photos/etc." are annoying, but at least the user has some level of control and consent. I do agree…

"Allow access" is pretty orthogonal, I don't know how it all works in mobile OSes, but I assume everything is virtualized there, so you can't just access whatever you want without user granting a permission (e.g. through a file picker system component).

You can also ship sandboxed apps on Desktop without the store (although I am not sure on how hard it is to auto-update them, usually stores handle that part), at least on Windows and macOS.

Stores handle storing the apps themselves and distributing updates, that part of the cost is real, plus they do manually review submissions (to some degree), but 30% is insane for that.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#113

Post by throwaway31131 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #64

If there was more than a duopoly in smartphones, I'd say Apple should be able to have whatever horrible app policy they want, so long as it is clearly communicated to everyone including customers. Let the market decide. But that's not where we are. I think it makes sense to treat both Apple and Google as de facto monopolies with respect to the smartphone market, and impose some regulation on what they have to allow a…

We probably do need some kind of regulation in this space because for better or worse, and I think it’s worse, it’s hard to be a participant in modern society without a smart phone. (In my mind it would be something more akin to the communications act of 1934, but for apps to mandate a certain amount of “interoperability” across operating systems, whatever that may mean, but I digress)

on the other hand, it wasn’t all that long ago that we had many smart phone markers and operating systems, all with different strategies. It’s possible that the market did decide…

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#114

Post by bloomca »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #70
jmull wrote: post #45

I think Apple should mostly be allowed to run as crappy an App Store as they want. But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want. (Ground rules all app stored would have to follow based on technical, security, and legal concerns would be fine too, IMO.) Of course Apple would never go for that, so we'll end up with whatever mess legal processes can wring out of them.

> But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want. This the answer. The app store monopoly doesn't really matter, the real tyranny is needing Apple's cryptographic blessing to run software on our own computers. This should be literally illegal. Restore our computer freedom and their app store rent seeking becomes irrelevant.

It's not just about that. I am sure if the court would force them to allow sideloading, they'll make sure to never promote your app if you decide to offer both options to the users.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#115

Post by zdragnar »

echelon wrote: post #109
bloomca wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it allowed to charge more in storefronts which take these cuts? Why nobody does that? What about Steam? Can a publisher sell a game for ~$45 in their store and $60 in Steam, or is it against some TOC?

Games are silly and inessential. And there are a dozen markets to choose from. Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Steam, GOG, Epic, Ubisoft, Humble, Itch, direct download, retro games, ... Phones are essential. You can't get a job without one. It's impossible to stay connected or navigate without one. You can't even order food in a restaurant these days without your smartphone. Yet two companies control and tax the entirety…

We could have had other competitors, but nobody wanted them.

Windows phones had a very enthusiastic but too-tiny following. Blackberry lost the plot with terrible hardware and software for the app era (developing an app for the Storm was enough to convince me to never get one of their phones). Symbian's S60 was too little too late in the US. Ubuntu, Mozilla, and others all tried various flavors of Linux and web based phones to no success.

I don't think you can really blame Google or Apple for any of these failures in the same way Microsoft could be blamed in the 90's for their abuses.

With that said, I wouldn't be surprised if, eventually, Google was forced to change how they handle third party app stores. iPhones will likely never be big enough for Apple to be forced to allow other stores in the US.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#116

Post by CGamesPlay »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #101
ianbutler wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dynamics of 7% of ownership and 30% of ongoing revenue are vastly different. So different in fact that the comparison doesn't hold water.

I'd love to hear a proper cointerargument, and not a dismissal.

When Y Combinator gives $10,000 for a 7% stake in the company, the company goes from being "worth" $130,000 before the money to being worth $140,000 after, and they have $10,000 more in their bank account. Every dollar the company earns afterwards also increases their bank account by $1.00.

When an app store takes a 30% commission on sales, every dollar the company earns afterwards increases their bank account by $0.70.

The percent doesn't really matter (if YC took 30% ownership or app stores took 7% commission), the comparison doesn't really make sense either way.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#117

Post by pkaye »

bloomca wrote: post #107
rootusrootus wrote: post #64

If there was more than a duopoly in smartphones, I'd say Apple should be able to have whatever horrible app policy they want, so long as it is clearly communicated to everyone including customers. Let the market decide. But that's not where we are. I think it makes sense to treat both Apple and Google as de facto monopolies with respect to the smartphone market, and impose some regulation on what they have to allow a…

Is it allowed to charge more in storefronts which take these cuts? Why nobody does that? What about Steam? Can a publisher sell a game for ~$45 in their store and $60 in Steam, or is it against some TOC?

For Steam, I believe the price parity requirement for Steam only applies to Steam Keys. Publishers can sell at a lower prices on other store front as long as it doesn't involve Steam infrastructure.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#118

Post by oefrha »

bloomca wrote: post #107
rootusrootus wrote: post #64

If there was more than a duopoly in smartphones, I'd say Apple should be able to have whatever horrible app policy they want, so long as it is clearly communicated to everyone including customers. Let the market decide. But that's not where we are. I think it makes sense to treat both Apple and Google as de facto monopolies with respect to the smartphone market, and impose some regulation on what they have to allow a…

Is it allowed to charge more in storefronts which take these cuts? Why nobody does that? What about Steam? Can a publisher sell a game for ~$45 in their store and $60 in Steam, or is it against some TOC?

> Is it allowed to charge more in storefronts which take these cuts? Why nobody does that?

What? There are plenty of apps charging more when you buy currency/subscription on iOS compared to when you buy from their website, or in some cases Android app. Patreon is an example that made the loudest noise recently, but it’s been a widespread practice for years. That said Apple doesn’t (didn’t?) allow you to tell users that a cheaper option exists elsewhere.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#119

Post by echelon »

zdragnar wrote: post #115
echelon wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Games are silly and inessential. And there are a dozen markets to choose from. Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Steam, GOG, Epic, Ubisoft, Humble, Itch, direct download, retro games, ... Phones are essential. You can't get a job without one. It's impossible to stay connected or navigate without one. You can't even order food in a restaurant these days without your smartphone. Yet two companies control and tax the entirety…

We could have had other competitors, but nobody wanted them. Windows phones had a very enthusiastic but too-tiny following. Blackberry lost the plot with terrible hardware and software for the app era (developing an app for the Storm was enough to convince me to never get one of their phones). Symbian's S60 was too little too late in the US. Ubuntu, Mozilla, and others all tried various flavors of Linux and web based…

> We could have had other competitors, but nobody wanted them.

Don't blame individual consumers. Bad things happen at a societal level all the time. Carbon emissions, etc. We're powerless to stop it without governmental intervention.

Your average consumer isn't educated on marketplace behaviors and doesn't understand how a lack of consumer choice leads to increased prices, inflexibility, taxation of smaller marketplace participants, less innovation, less freedom, etc. They simply can't understand the complexities of the case as deep familiarity isn't a part of their daily lives.

The large players that set these rules are squarely to blame.

> I don't think you can really blame Google or Apple for any of these failures in the same way Microsoft could be blamed in the 90's for their abuses.

You can install whatever you want on a Microsoft PC.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#120

Post by ianbutler »

CGamesPlay wrote: post #116
johnnyanmac wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to hear a proper cointerargument, and not a dismissal.

When Y Combinator gives $10,000 for a 7% stake in the company, the company goes from being "worth" $130,000 before the money to being worth $140,000 after, and they have $10,000 more in their bank account. Every dollar the company earns afterwards also increases their bank account by $1.00. When an app store takes a 30% commission on sales, every dollar the company earns afterwards increases their bank account by $0.…

Thank you, making it concrete expressed what I was trying to say way better than I was doing in my reply :P
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