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The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

theguardian.com

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Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#111

Post by quickthrowman »

xnyan wrote: post #99
FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, nursing does not require a 4 year degree. You can become an RN with an associates degree. A 2 year nursing degree has one of the highest returns on investment of any training program (especially if you go to community college). Ivy Tech CC in Indiana and WGU both have nursing programs with great returns. Keep in mind, nursing is not an easy path and has a super high burnout rate. It's a tough and…

A lot of people are surprised to learn the the average wage for both plumbers and electricians is ~30 bucks an hour, then that’s in exchange for body breaking work. A small subset earn more, but it’s not the norm.

Union electricians and plumbers make good money, and the non-union shops that do commercial work have to pay close to union wages plus some fringes to get enough manpower. I pay $100/hr for a union journeyworker electrician in a metro area of ~3 million, $106 for a foreman, and $112 for a general foreman. Both of those include fringes, the split is about 55/45 or so. The contracts are for three-year terms with raises every year.

Residential construction is a whole different ballgame that I’m unfamiliar with, but I’d imagine that’s where the average gets dragged down.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#112

Post by nradov »

WalterBright wrote: post #108
nradov wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drugs were cheaper back then because they were less safe and effective, and because the easy stuff had mostly already been found.

Before 1962, drugs were already regulated to be safe. 1962 brought about the requirement for effective, which enormously increased drug prices. It's all in the book I referenced.

Yes, what's your point? We could have lots of cheap drugs if we don't care whether they actually work.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#113

Post by s1artibartfast »

nradov wrote: post #96
s1artibartfast wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how much worse were nurses when it was a 2 years occupational program or associates degree?

Huh? There have been multiple levels of nursing for many decades, probably longer than you've been alive. At the lowest level a CNA or LPN doesn't even need an Associate's Degree. https://www.usa.edu/blog/levels-of-nursing-explained/

Have you looked at proportions over time?

In the 1980s 55% of registered nurses were working with diploma. It is down to 6% today. Bachelors or greater was 27% and is now over 70% today.

As your link points out, many states are continually raising the bar and many have already moved to a BSN minimum.

I'm probably dating myself, but there was a time when people started working occupational nursing programs while in high school and were licensed a few years later.

https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/12956/chapter/9#186

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#114

Post by WalterBright »

nradov wrote: post #112
WalterBright wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before 1962, drugs were already regulated to be safe. 1962 brought about the requirement for effective, which enormously increased drug prices. It's all in the book I referenced.

Yes, what's your point? We could have lots of cheap drugs if we don't care whether they actually work.

The reference says what happens with the greatly increased cost to develop a new drug, is the number of new drugs developed dropped dramatically. But the percentage that turned out to be effective stayed the same.

So, yes, we are worse off because of that, because we wind up with far fewer effective drugs.

A proper solution is for the patient, a legal consenting adult, to sign a piece of paper that says he understands that the FDA has not verified the drug to be effective.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#115

Post by trhway »

nradov wrote: post #106
trhway wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ok, call it a contract between an individual and society - the individual pays taxes today and when retired gets his/her medical needs taken care about by the society. Looks like an insurance contract to me, btw. Anyway, like with any contract, whatever the individual is due under that contract is his dime, not the taxpayers'.

It doesn't matter what you're due under a contract if the counterparty is insolvent. Medicare beneficiaries are going to have to accept reduced benefits and higher fees. This is unavoidable due to demographic changes.

the society reneging on its contract today means that the current taxpayers will lose the trust in the society and in particular will be significantly discouraged from paying taxes, etc. as they would lose belief in the society keeping its side of the bargain in the future.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#116

Post by general1726 »

trhway wrote: post #90
general1726 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so what? It is on their dime, not yours. Actually in Europe it is on a dime of a taxpayer so also his.

No, they paid into it their whole life. So, it is their dime not the current taxpayer’s. The taxpayer is paying for their own future.

That's not how state pensions or state healthcare works.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#117

Post by laurencerowe »

nsksl wrote: post #69

Nurses in Spain make 2500-3000 euro a month, in a country where the most common salary is 1250 euro. Are they overworked? Well then they can take a pay cut so we can hire more of them.

Eurostat average full time salary 2022 for Spain is €31k. 2021 average nurse salary €38k.

While mean is not median the stats seem to show much less of a difference than your figures. For comparison in the US median full time wage is $66k while median nurses wages is $86k.

Nursing is a skilled occupation requiring a bachelors degree. Seems good they get paid around average wages for graduates.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/nama_10_fte__...

https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/12/14/nurses-salaries-acr...

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#118

Post by b3ing »

asdfj999 wrote: post #54

If I could change one thing about healthcare, it would be how we handle end of life care. Sadly, hospitals are full of 80-90+ year old people who cannot walk or talk for years, advanced dementia plus many other serious comorbidities, with severe malnutrition and recurrent aspiration pneumonia, with large non-healing sacral ulcers, who shit and piss themselves, and the family continues to insist we "do everything" to…

Until you have to make that decision it’s easy to judge. Even if you think you are doing the right thing for someone that can’t speak for themselves, the guilt can stick with you.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#119

Post by nradov »

trhway wrote: post #115
nradov wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what you're due under a contract if the counterparty is insolvent. Medicare beneficiaries are going to have to accept reduced benefits and higher fees. This is unavoidable due to demographic changes.

the society reneging on its contract today means that the current taxpayers will lose the trust in the society and in particular will be significantly discouraged from paying taxes, etc. as they would lose belief in the society keeping its side of the bargain in the future.

It doesn't matter whether taxpayers are discouraged. Medicare taxes are automatically deducted by employers for most workers.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#120

Post by b3ing »

bigmattystyles wrote: post #34
Analemma_ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is good to do for its own sake, but on a large scale it does not decrease health care costs: it makes people live longer, but they will still ultimately need the kind of end-of-life care where the majority of health care costs come from. Those costs don't go down for healthier people, and it might even increase health care spending on net if it takes people longer to die.

I know it’s easy to say but you do hear stories of families going to extraordinary lengths for an elderly loved one to give them a couple months of low quality of life. Is it the family trying to feel better or hoping for a miracle, or the patient themselves; I’m sure it’s both, but I can’t help but think if we were more comfortable with death, these really costly situations would go away and suffering would actually…

The last thing you think of when your loved one is on the edge is if you can save money for the system
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