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Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

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Re: Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

#111

Why does everything (in big-budget video games) look shiny and wet? If it is an attempt at realism, reality is not constantly shiny and wet. If it a subjective artistic choice, it is objectively wrong and ugly. Is there an expectation that everything look shiny and wet to make it seem more "dynamic"? Is it an artists' meme, like the Wilhelm Scream in cinematic sound design?

The common wisdom is that it's more difficult to make sunny and dry environments look pretty than it is overcast and wet ones. I tend to agree with this based on the end results I've seen over the many years.

That's what I used to think too.. but Spec Ops: The Line is entirely based in desert, even has a shot of sarin horror and while 'pretty' isn't the word I'd use, it is stunning.

Re: Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

#112
post #89
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Photorealism is a bad idea if your movement engine isn't good enough to handle the character walking around on uneven terrain. For racing games or flight simulators or such it is less of a problem, but seeing a regular person being absolutely flummoxed by a knee-high wall is massively immersion breaking. It's something I really noticed when playing Disaster Report 4, where the people look amazingly realistic but some…

> For racing games or flight simulators or such it is less of a problem, Cars are also easier to make photorealistic. Less uncanny valley effect, lots of flat shiny surfaces. What absolutely breaks immersion for me in most AAA car games is the absolute lack of crash, scratch, and dirt mechanics. Cars racing around the track for 2 hours don’t look like showroom pieces! Make ‘em dirty darn it. And when I crash into a w…

You might like BeamNG.drive. It has soft-body physics simulation (also for driving dynamics, so it's not arcadey) and decent graphics. It's more like a sandbox with half-done "actual game" mods AFAIU, but happens to be quite popular and very highly rated anyway. I'm on the fence about buying it myself.

Re: Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

#113
post #67

I don't want realistic looking games, I want pretty looking games. Look at movies that go all in on realism, can't see anything, can't hear anything. That's terrible.

The fact you can't hear anything has nothing to do with realism. It's lazyness.

https://www.slashfilm.com/673162/heres-why-movie-dialogue-ha...

Re: Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

#114
The screenshot of "Zelda: Breath of the Wild " the author holds up as an exemplar looks unrealistically tone mapped to me. The "bad" screenshots in the lede look more natural and pleasing. Not realistic -- they're too stylized for my taste -- but the Zelda screenshot is simply unrealistic in a different direction.

Re: Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

#115
post #98

I truly don’t understand the author’s opinions about contrast here. The RE7 image is the only one here that looks ‘realistic’, and at a glance could be mistaken for a photograph, and he says it’s got way too much contrast. No other image here comes anywhere even close, definitely not Zelda nor GTA5. Personally I think the whole problem with the first 5 images is that they don’t have enough contrast, and they have too…

> definitely not Zelda nor GTA5.

The zelda screenshot he uses as an example of how good things look without HDR, looks terrible to me. It is all washed out with brightness and bloom, and all the shadows in the landscape that in reality would almolst be black, are very light grey.

Re: Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

#116

One big issue I never understood is why do we need photorealism in games at all. They seem to benefit card manufacturers and graphic programmers, but other than that I feel it has nothing to do — and in fact may have negative impact on game quality.

There is no "we". Some people like it some of the time.

Re: Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

#117
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the author's list of "ugly" games is missing Witcher III, Hellblade, God of War (2018), Elden Ring, Baldur's Gate... And we need some examples of good, cinematic, artful tone mapping, like any scene of a Hollywood movie set in Mexico...

In my experience Elden Ring looks better when you turn the graphics quality down. Baldur's Gate isn't particularly ugly for a '98 game. And I agree that it would be nice to have some positive examples. I think there were a bunch of SNES games which did it well, but that may just be nostalgia.

> Baldur's Gate isn't particularly ugly for a '98 game.

I remember it looked beautiful. Especially comparing to early 3D games of that era.

Re: Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

#118

One big issue I never understood is why do we need photorealism in games at all. They seem to benefit card manufacturers and graphic programmers, but other than that I feel it has nothing to do — and in fact may have negative impact on game quality.

There is no "we". Some people like it some of the time.

Yeah that’s fair.

Re: Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

#119

Hmm. I like the author's main point in many video games doing this unrealistically, but there are a few sticking points that are relevant from the past few years: - The omission of discussing HDR monitors, and how you can't really capture that on a screenshot. This is a game changer, especially with new games and monitors. - The omissions of discussing Unreal5 games that have come out in the past few years. (e.g. Tal…

The article is from 2017.

Oh wow. I wonder what the author thinks of the new trends! I bet he or she would be pleasantly surprised by some of them.

Re: Games Look Bad: HDR and Tone Mapping (2017)

#120
This article is just misinformed. Source: I’ve been working with color space conversion, HDR tone mapping, gamut mapping and “film look” for 20 years.

It’s clear from their critique of the first screenshots that their problem is not with HDR, but contrast levels. Contrast is a color grading decision totally separate from HDR tonemapping.

There’s then a digression about RED and Arri that is incorrect. Even their earliest cameras shot RAW and could be color matched against each other.

Then they assert that tone mapping is hampered by being a 1D curve, but this is more or less exactly how film works. AAA games often come up with their own curves rather than using stock curves like Hable or ACES, and I would assume that they’re often combined with 3D LUTs for “look” in order to reduce lookups.

The author is right about digital still cameras doing a very good job mapping the HDR sensor data to SDR images like JPEGs. The big camera companies have to balance “accuracy” and making the image “pleasing,” and that’s what photographers commonly call their “color science.” Really good gamut mapping is part of that secret sauce. However, part of what looks pleasing is that these are high contrast transforms, which is exactly what the author seems to not like.

They say “we don’t have the technical capability to run real film industry LUTs in the correct color spaces,” which is just factually incorrect. Color grading software and AAA games use the same GPUs and shader languages. A full ACES workflow would be overkill (not too heavy, just unnecessarily flexible) for a game, because you can do you full-on cinema color grading on your game and then bake it into a 3D LUT that very accurately captures the look.

The author then shows a screenshot of Breath of the Wild, which I’m nearly positive uses a global tonemap—it just might not do a lot of dynamic exposure adjustment.

Then they evaluate a few more images before praising a Forza image for being low contrast, which again, has nothing to do with HDR and everything to do with color grading.

Ultimately, the author is right that this is about aesthetics. Unfortunately, there’s no accounting for taste. But a game’s “look” is far more involved than just the use of HDR or tone mapping.

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